Johns and Romita on Superman will make big waves - mostly because retailers already know they can sell a Johns Superman book, and now it has Romita Jr. on it. Numbers may not last through a full year, but the first number of issues will make them money. And that's all they care about. A few nay sayers won't stop the sales. I also don't think Romita will stay on for very long. His wording in some of those interviews has been very guarded. Almost like he knows DC could tank the whole thing.
I get your point, it was a swim suit special, but even though this image of Bishop is inviting mockery, I think the artwork is far more superior. I like the line work and the rendering. Even the eyes don't seem "dead" here.
The anatomy is just as exaggerated as Romita’s pin-up, and the rendering is overly rendered as far as I'm concerned. Frankly, I don’t think either image is particularly good, but I find more I like with JR’s than with this.
Is the argument intended to suggest that an artist that puts together dynamic sequential compositions using nothing but stick figures is on par with an artist that does highly detailed/rendered be they stylized or not figure drawings with a more limited ability for dynamic sequentials? ie. JRJR in comparison to an Alex Ross / Dan Brereton / Greg Land / Jim Lee?
It seems as though you're equating “layouts” with “storytelling” here, which is like equating “apples” to “fruit.” The layout of a story is only part of what goes into the storytelling. It’s a big part, yes, but there are a lot of other factors.
JRJR in comparison to an Alex Ross / Dan Brereton / Greg Land / Jim Lee?
You're citing Greg "Pornface" Land as a positive example?
Seriously?
I'll take the dynamism of Romita over the PhotoShopped flatness of Land anytime anywhere.
I'm not a fan of Land, but I know that some people are. I was using Land more as an example of a photo referenced, detailed figure style. Sort of a linework version of the same technique used by Ross and Brereton to what is, in my opinion, a far diminished effect.
OK. *whew*. I was worried about you! :D
Seriously, though, with the exception of Ross' groundbreaking work, I find photo-reference, highly detailed work stiff and boring. I like my comics more comic-y, more cartoony, more abstract. Artists like Darwyn Cooke, Mike Allred and JRJR have a level of abstraction to their work that has far more life to it.
Personally I find Romita's work a bit too busy, but I'd rather see him on a book than, say, Jim Lee, any time.
Photo reference is fine. I like Paul Gulacy's work most of the time (albeit his stuff can be stiff), John Bolton is sorely missed and there are some others I can't think of off the top of my head. But when you just trace a photo and call it art...meh.
There is a big difference between referencing a photo and being a slave to a photo. Norman Rockwell used photos. Hell, he even used a projector, and traced photos off onto his drawing board. But those tracings were only a starting point. He would change an angle here, light a fold differently there, etc., in such a way that the finished painting had life and energy.
Alex works in a similar way, where he sketches everything out in freehand pencil before taking any photos. He then photographs his models in the poses he sketched out, and only really uses the photos for lighting purposes. And his work rarely feels stiff. And Dan’s stuff is even less photo-reliant. The energy in his work comes almost as much from his palette as it does from the boldness of his brushstrokes.
Gulacy would sometimes IMO be too slavish to the photo. Land, of course, is one of the worst offenders of this. It’s a very fine line to walk, and it’s all too easy to stick too closely to a photograph and stiffen up the drawing.
Like Stewart, I tend to prefer cartoony, more abstract, and/or more graphic artists in general, precisely for that reason.
Is the argument intended to suggest that an artist that puts together dynamic sequential compositions using nothing but stick figures is on par with an artist that does highly detailed/rendered be they stylized or not figure drawings with a more limited ability for dynamic sequentials? ie. JRJR in comparison to an Alex Ross / Dan Brereton / Greg Land / Jim Lee?
I don't think Matt Feazell, Rich Burlew or The Guy Who Does XKCD are on par with Lee, I think they're worlds better.
All of their stick figures are more expressive than anything I've ever seen Lee do.
OK, Stewart, the dead horse is sufficiently flogged.
In what way is this superior artwork to the classically derided Liefeld Captain America? That anatomy is hellish and the entire thing is just a couple of baby animals away from being a David Hasselhoff inspired nighmare.
It was also for the Swimsuit Special, or something like that. Pinups in magazine format of superheroes in swimsuits. I think the especially exaggerated anatomy of this pinup should be seen in that tongue and cheek context.
As opposed to the context of in-story sequential art that is supposed to be taken more seriously, in the case of the infamous Liefeld Cap.
I'm going to respectifully disagree on a couple of points.
First - I'd like to stipulate that Liefeld treated every panel as a pin-up and avoided sequential art in favor or providing a series of pinups that just happen to go in a certain order so as to approximate a story.
Second - one would think that, assuming that one didn't have to go to all of the work required to translate the story to a series of visual images that describe sequential action would actually be less labor intensive and potentially provide for more opportunity to focus on things like anatomy - I get the exaggerating perspective on Fury, and the fact that super-hero anatomy is inherently exaggerated, but the shelf-like pecs are straight out of that Liefeld Cap image and the severe muscle atrophy evident in Stark's left thigh (look at how it sizes up compared to the right thigh behind it), to say nothing of the relationship of Stark's shoulders and head make for nothing but badness.
Third - My gods man! The fingers!
Is the argument intended to suggest that an artist that puts together dynamic sequential compositions using nothing but stick figures is on par with an artist that does highly detailed/rendered be they stylized or not figure drawings with a more limited ability for dynamic sequentials? ie. JRJR in comparison to an Alex Ross / Dan Brereton / Greg Land / Jim Lee?
My argument is not to say who is on par with who or who is above or below someone else, as that sort of horizontal ranking would seek to make something qualitative and subjective into something that can be laid out on a bar graph. I am not trying to convince anyone to like art that they don't.
But I do think the context of the image being judged matters. That it was a pin up for a swimsuit special means that tongue was likely firmly in cheek. And that if ever there was going to be an excessive approach to anatomy, it would be in that setting.
So my point is to cherry pick that image as the one to criticize JRJR for is not representative of the rest of his work.
As opposed to the Liefeld image of Cap, which is to me far more exaggerated. . . and far more representative of the rest of his work.
As for the comic in question, I will give it a try. I have also cooled on Johns in the last few years, though I have been getting won back by Forever Evil, which I have really been enjoying. And I do love JRJR. So I figure that is enough for me to at least give it a shot.
My argument is not to say who is on par with who or who is above or below someone else, as that sort of horizontal ranking would seek to make something qualitative and subjective into something that can be laid out on a bar graph. I am not trying to convince anyone to like art that they don't.
But I do think the context of the image being judged matters. That it was a pin up for a swimsuit special means that tongue was likely firmly in cheek. And that if ever there was going to be an excessive approach to anatomy, it would be in that setting.
So my point is to cherry pick that image as the one to criticize JRJR for is not representative of the rest of his work.
As opposed to the Liefeld image of Cap, which is to me far more exaggerated. . . and far more representative of the rest of his work.
Good response, and your point is taken with regard to Swim Suit Special very likely was taken tongue in cheek. However, I didn't cherry pick the image, I just accepted it as representative of what I see in JRJR's work. Also, to my eye, all of the things that I typically reject in JRJR art are present in that piece and don't seem to be so in an uncharacteristically greater or lesser amount so, if he took an excessive approach, it was with body hair and the suits, and not so much, from my eye, with his figure drawing. The same things are there in his Daredevil run in the late '80's, his '90's X-men, Iron Man, Punisher War Zone and Daredevil: Man Without Fear. In each and every one of those instances, I tried to read and, hopefully, enjoy the books and had no success.
The Liefeld Cap is certainly more exaggerated or, if you will more Extreme, but I think that it's also a bit exaggerated from the typical Liefeld at least from New Mutants and X-Force - I wasn't long for his Image offerings. I would sincerely place both artists in a very similar place but where Liefeld struggles with feet, JRJR seems to have issues with hands (and faces).
Photo reference is fine. I like Paul Gulacy's work most of the time (albeit his stuff can be stiff), John Bolton is sorely missed and there are some others I can't think of off the top of my head. But when you just trace a photo and call it art...meh.
There is a big difference between referencing a photo and being a slave to a photo. Norman Rockwell used photos. Hell, he even used a projector, and traced photos off onto his drawing board. But those tracings were only a starting point. He would change an angle here, light a fold differently there, etc., in such a way that the finished painting had life and energy.
Alex works in a similar way, where he sketches everything out in freehand pencil before taking any photos. He then photographs his models in the poses he sketched out, and only really uses the photos for lighting purposes. And his work rarely feels stiff. And Dan’s stuff is even less photo-reliant. The energy in his work comes almost as much from his palette as it does from the boldness of his brushstrokes.
Gulacy would sometimes IMO be too slavish to the photo. Land, of course, is one of the worst offenders of this. It’s a very fine line to walk, and it’s all too easy to stick too closely to a photograph and stiffen up the drawing.
Like Stewart, I tend to prefer cartoony, more abstract, and/or more graphic artists in general, precisely for that reason.
I get the difference between photo-reference styles. I've enjoyed what I've read about both Ross' and Brereton's processes. I don't recall where I read about Ross, but Brereton had a nice back up in the Nocturnals Dark Forever trade.
I get the difference between photo-reference styles. I've enjoyed what I've read about both Ross' and Brereton's processes. I don't recall where I read about Ross, but Brereton had a nice back up in the Nocturnals Dark Forever trade.
Okay. I wasn’t really addressing that specifically at you though. Basically I went through all that to give context to my last sentence.
I get the difference between photo-reference styles. I've enjoyed what I've read about both Ross' and Brereton's processes. I don't recall where I read about Ross, but Brereton had a nice back up in the Nocturnals Dark Forever trade.
Okay. I wasn’t really addressing that specifically at you though. Basically I went through all that to give context to my last sentence.
No worries. It appears that while don't necessarily agree on JRJR, we're on the same page with Brereton.
It's like, did Marvel and Romita Jr conspire to infiltrate DC and destroy their most iconic character? Is JRjr playing double agent here? What is with the Liefield lines all over everything? Auuugghh...
Looks like DC is trying to recreate their '70s "Kirby Is Coming" marketing push with this "Romita Is Coming" buzz campaign. And with Romita being a Marvel veteran, I suppose it makes sense. But for me, JRjr is no Kirby - not even close. Although, I do admit that this is a pretty good drawing of Bizarro Superman...
Looks like DC is trying to recreate their '70s "Kirby Is Coming" marketing push with this "Romita Is Coming" buzz campaign. And with Romita being a Marvel veteran, I suppose it makes sense. But for me, JRjr is no Kirby - not even close. Although, I do admit that this is a pretty good drawing of Bizarro Superman...
At a quick glance, that is a very nice composition.
Upon study, however, it is an unattractive rendition of an ugly and needlessly-detailed design.
Looks like DC is trying to recreate their '70s "Kirby Is Coming" marketing push with this "Romita Is Coming" buzz campaign. And with Romita being a Marvel veteran, I suppose it makes sense. But for me, JRjr is no Kirby - not even close. Although, I do admit that this is a pretty good drawing of Bizarro Superman...
That's bad but the version they had before was worse:
Comments
To each their own.
Alex works in a similar way, where he sketches everything out in freehand pencil before taking any photos. He then photographs his models in the poses he sketched out, and only really uses the photos for lighting purposes. And his work rarely feels stiff. And Dan’s stuff is even less photo-reliant. The energy in his work comes almost as much from his palette as it does from the boldness of his brushstrokes.
Gulacy would sometimes IMO be too slavish to the photo. Land, of course, is one of the worst offenders of this. It’s a very fine line to walk, and it’s all too easy to stick too closely to a photograph and stiffen up the drawing.
Like Stewart, I tend to prefer cartoony, more abstract, and/or more graphic artists in general, precisely for that reason.
All of their stick figures are more expressive than anything I've ever seen Lee do.
OK, Stewart, the dead horse is sufficiently flogged.
But I do think the context of the image being judged matters. That it was a pin up for a swimsuit special means that tongue was likely firmly in cheek. And that if ever there was going to be an excessive approach to anatomy, it would be in that setting.
So my point is to cherry pick that image as the one to criticize JRJR for is not representative of the rest of his work.
As opposed to the Liefeld image of Cap, which is to me far more exaggerated. . . and far more representative of the rest of his work.
The Liefeld Cap is certainly more exaggerated or, if you will more Extreme, but I think that it's also a bit exaggerated from the typical Liefeld at least from New Mutants and X-Force - I wasn't long for his Image offerings. I would sincerely place both artists in a very similar place but where Liefeld struggles with feet, JRJR seems to have issues with hands (and faces). I get the difference between photo-reference styles. I've enjoyed what I've read about both Ross' and Brereton's processes. I don't recall where I read about Ross, but Brereton had a nice back up in the Nocturnals Dark Forever trade.
First previews of the artwork here
Since I can't say anything nice, let me say that I really like John Romita Sr.'s work
Matthew
low-borrow to pants
Looks like DC is trying to recreate their '70s "Kirby Is Coming" marketing push with this "Romita Is Coming" buzz campaign. And with Romita being a Marvel veteran, I suppose it makes sense. But for me, JRjr is no Kirby - not even close. Although, I do admit that this is a pretty good drawing of Bizarro Superman...
Upon study, however, it is an unattractive rendition of an ugly and needlessly-detailed design.
The face looks more like Darkseid than Kal-El.