Doesn't it seem a bit strange that the director of the film would suggest that moviegoers not bother reading the credits of all the people who helped produce the film along with him? Seems somewhat arrogant if it isn't a head-fake.
Or perhaps simply a kindness to the bladder-control-challenged among his audience.
Doesn't it seem a bit strange that the director of the film would suggest that moviegoers not bother reading the credits of all the people who helped produce the film along with him? Seems somewhat arrogant if it isn't a head-fake.
That's not really what he said, though.
“There is nothing at the very end. And that’s not a fake-out,” Whedon says. “We want people to know so they don’t sit there for 10 minutes and then go: ‘Son of a bitch! I’ll kill them!’”
He's saying don't sit there expecting something. He isn't saying not to bother with the credits.
Agree with @DoctorDoom - The stinger has become part of the format of the Marvel movies so better to give people a heads up then to have the parting experience after what will probably be a fantastic movie be a little bit of disappointment.
You don't want them to go from "whee!" to then feeling cheated.
“There is nothing at the very end. And that’s not a fake-out,” Whedon says. “We want people to know so they don’t sit there for 10 minutes and then go: ‘Son of a bitch! I’ll kill them!’”
He's saying don't sit there expecting something. He isn't saying not to bother with the credits.
Agree with @DoctorDoom - The stinger has become part of the format of the Marvel movies so better to give people a heads up then to have the parting experience after what will probably be a fantastic movie be a little bit of disappointment.
You don't want them to go from "whee!" to then feeling cheated.
Fair enough. If he's being sincere, then I maintain that it's a colossal missed opportunity for them to be able to promote Ant-Man, Doctor Strange, Black Panther, Captain Marvel, or even the Inhumans since Marvel has trained their audiences to expect something and Ant-Man will be opening 2 months later. How many of the millions of Avengers moviegoers are going to read this interview where Whedon says 'don't expect anything' versus how many won't hear this news at all and will once again sit through the credits only to feel gypped at the end? (Damned if you don't scenario)
As I recall, they shot the Avengers shawarma scene a mere two weeks or so before the movie launched. It wouldn't be too late or difficult to insert a scene of interesting dialogue foreshadowing Ant-Man or even Doctor Strange. I'm still not convinced Kevin and Josh are being 100% truthful, but if it is true, then I'll admit that we were forewarned.
Fair enough. If he's being sincere, then I maintain that it's a colossal missed opportunity for them to be able to promote Ant-Man, Doctor Strange, Black Panther, Captain Marvel, or even the Inhumans since Marvel has trained their audiences to expect something and Ant-Man will be opening 2 months later. How many of the millions of Avengers moviegoers are going to read this interview where Whedon says 'don't expect anything' versus how many won't hear this news at all and will once again sit through the credits only to feel gypped at the end? (Damned if you don't scenario)
But who's to say they can't do any of that in the mid-credits sequence?
Winter Soldier hinted at the twins with his. Thor: Dark World's mid-credits pointed towards Guardians of the Galaxy.
I don't see anywhere in the article where Whedon says he won't be doing that. (Not that I expect him to comment on the content of the mid-credits scene)
In fact, I think I find this article to incite unnecessary pessimism. "Ever since 2008’s Iron Man concluded with a surprise scene of Samuel L. Jackson’s Nick Fury revealing to Robert Downey Jr.’s Tony Stark that he has “become part of a bigger universe,” fans of the Marvel Cinematic Universe have known to stick around to the very end for a surprise.
But this time …"
The way the article leads off, it makes you think there won't be a universe-building scene. But then it then goes to talk about the Schwarma scene. That's something that's totally different.
Does anyone else see what I see, or am I just crazier than usual?
@bralinator - Except that a push for Ant-Man might be embedded in the film itself, if there is a narrative reason for it. Not to mention, surely attached as a trailer before. The stingers are fun and all, but they aren't the only way to make the MCU fans aware of what is up next.
Personally, I would rather them have only the stingers that enhance the enjoyment of the movie you are actually sitting there watching. That they be a PART of the story, not just ad space.
The ones in Avengers, for example, were great-- we got a glimpse of where the failed alien invasion fits in to a growing story, we got a glimpse of Thanos, which will pay off later, in future movies about the Avengers. And then the shawarma scene was playful, and paid off as a joke set up earlier in the movie.
I thought seeing the collector at the end of Thor 2 felt like they were really straining to get us thinking about Guardians. It felt out of tone with the rest of the movie, and out of character for the characters, as I saw no justification at all for the Asgardians to trust whatever that McGuffin was (I forget which super-item it was) to the Collector. I would have preferred no stinger to that one. (And I think I remember hearing that the director of Thor 2 didn't like it either, and it wasn't even shot by him, but this was awhile ago, so I may be remembering that incorrectly)
There are enough ads for these films. I would rather Whedon, and the rest of the filmmakers, get to use their time to tell us the story they want to tell, and not have to carry water for the marketing department. There are trailers before the movie, and available constantly online. I'm fine with them letting Whedon make the movie he wants to make.
I find it very interesting that neither of you sees any value in including the increasingly expected post-credits scenes. There will definitely be a mid-credits scene @DoctorDoom, of that I'm certain, but this is about the scene/tease that takes place when all the credits are over. @David_D you appear quite zealous in your defense of NOT including one. That's unexpected, but not surprising. For the record, I'm certainly not saying that scenes like Howard the Duck's or the shawarma scene were useful to much degree, but they certainly have the potential to be - AND, most importantly the audience has come to expect this end scene and they will remain in their seats to see it. Marvel has conditioned there to be a captive audience all the way to the very end of the credits.
I thought seeing the collector at the end of Thor 2 felt like they were really straining to get us thinking about Guardians. It felt out of tone with the rest of the movie, and out of character for the characters, as I saw no justification at all for the Asgardians to trust whatever that McGuffin was (I forget which super-item it was) to the Collector. I would have preferred no stinger to that one. (And I think I remember hearing that the director of Thor 2 didn't like it either, and it wasn't even shot by him, but this was awhile ago, so I may be remembering that incorrectly)
There are enough ads for these films. I would rather Whedon, and the rest of the filmmakers, get to use their time to tell us the story they want to tell, and not have to carry water for the marketing department. There are trailers before the movie, and available constantly online. I'm fine with them letting Whedon make the movie he wants to make.
So am I, but they've demonstrated that they don't have to use the same director. Any 2nd unit director can shoot these scenes, and has. For the record, there has been an end credits tease or scene in Iron Man 1, The Incredible Hulk, Iron Man 2, Thor, Captain America 1, The Avengers, Iron Man 3, Thor 2, Captain America 2, and Guardians of the Galaxy. Even X-Men DOFP and Amazing Spider-Man 2 included one. So this would essentially be the only Marvel Studios theatrical film in the last 7 years to NOT include one. And while Marvel's Phase 1 featured much more serious teases than the ones in Phase 2, there will still be butts in the the seats waiting for the end credits scene/tease that moviegoers have been conditioned to expect, regardless of this press release.
Of course Marvel already has us wrapped around their fingers and don't need to tease us for future films, they know we'll go anyway. Nonetheless, not showing the obligatory end-scene when thousands of people will still be staring at the screen with their warm sodas is a missed opportunity at most, and a let down at worst.
@bralinator At the end of the day, I trust Whedon to make the movie he wants to make.
I would rather him skip the stinger at the very end if he didn't have one that was worth waiting for then just do one because that is the format. And I get what you're saying-- there might be some people who wait and are bummed if they don't get one. But there is also a negative to waiting and getting a lame one. I've been in the crowd when that has happened, too.
If I am zealous, it is not because I have a strong feeling about these scenes one way or the other. Rather, I am zealous about letting the filmmakers be in charge of the storytelling experience from beginning to end. It seems like Marvel is ahead of some other studios in letting their people do that. It is Whedon's job as to give us a great Avengers movie. Not to sell us Ant-Man. I look to him to be a storyteller, not an advertiser. And, sure, sometimes you can do both. But if he organically didn't feel like it fit this time, then that's fine with me.
There are enough rules to how movies, especially genre ones, are structured and made. I don't need "There must be the stinger at the end because that is expected" to be a new one. And if it turns out there isn't one for 'Ultron and the opening weekend crowd waited for it anyway, they'll survive. And then maybe the next Marvel director (perhaps one with less juice than Whedon) won't feel they *have* to do one because that is the audience expectation.
Pre-Credit. Mid-Credit. Post-Credit. I'll take them all.
I think these little scenes and some of the marvel one-shots are fun and add a lot to the experience of seeing these films. The continuity of the film universe is as important as it USED TO BE and STILL SHOULD BE in the comics.
The scenes are fun. I like them. I think a lot of fans like the little hints and teases and bits and pieces of what's to come. Even if it's not specific/detailed, but just high level stuff, or maybe a bit generic, it's still great.
I've already got my Avengers and Avengers: A of U double feature tickets purchased. For the price, I'll take all the fun I can get.
Spiderman swinging through Mid-town! The Black Panther having a council meeting with his people! A glimpse of something that foreshadows Carol Danvers! I don't think any of that is serving the marketing department as much as it is serving the crowds seeing the movies.
I'm just guessing, but I have the feeling that perhaps this Avengers film will end on a bit of a downer. Maybe inserting a light scene, or a blatant promo for something else, just felt wrong to Whedon.
I am zealous about letting the filmmakers be in charge of the storytelling experience from beginning to end. It seems like Marvel is ahead of some other studios in letting their people do that. It is Whedon's job as to give us a great Avengers movie. Not to sell us Ant-Man. I look to him to be a storyteller, not an advertiser. And, sure, sometimes you can do both. But if he organically didn't feel like it fit this time, then that's fine with me.
I wasn't let down, nor was I too impressed with the shawarma scene at the end of Avengers 1, but it was there. It added little to nothing to the story being told, nothing to the expansion of the Marvel U, and was completely unnecessary. While the teases at the end of Iron Man 1, 2, and Cap 1, and Thor 1, all expanded the Marvel Universe in some clever way. Maybe Whedon just isn't brilliant enough to figure out a way to give the fans a cute/fun/enticing tease at the end of his (reportedly) final Marvel Studios movie. If so I'll be very surprised.
I am zealous about letting the filmmakers be in charge of the storytelling experience from beginning to end. It seems like Marvel is ahead of some other studios in letting their people do that. It is Whedon's job as to give us a great Avengers movie. Not to sell us Ant-Man. I look to him to be a storyteller, not an advertiser. And, sure, sometimes you can do both. But if he organically didn't feel like it fit this time, then that's fine with me.
I wasn't let down, nor was I too impressed with the shawarma scene at the end of Avengers 1, but it was there. It added little to nothing to the story being told, nothing to the expansion of the Marvel U, and was completely unnecessary. While the teases at the end of Iron Man 1, 2, and Cap 1, and Thor 1, all expanded the Marvel Universe in some clever way. Maybe Whedon just isn't brilliant enough to figure out a way to give the fans a cute/fun/enticing tease at the end of his (reportedly) final Marvel Studios movie. If so I'll be very surprised.
Or maybe there will actually be enough universe building IN THE MOVIE before the credits that one post credit scene was enough. Could be.
And I think @chrisw makes a good point-- if, as we are guessing, this movie ends with a rift between the characters, leading up to Cap: Civil War, then it might not be the right time for a little cute scene at the end. Just like--to pretend for a second there were these things decades ago-- a fun character/relationship moment would have fit after Star Wars, but not so much after Empire.
I agree that the shawarma scene at the end of Avengers didn't expand the MU (the Thanos scene had already done that) or change my life. But it didn't have to.
It was a nice little callback, paying off a joke that was probably set up 30 minutes before, and I think the stakes of the movie had been weighty enough that, after saving the day, it was a joke that felt earned.
From the stories of how quickly, and late in the process that one was shot and added, it sounds like, organically, he felt the movie could use that last beat at the end. To me, that sounds like a storytelling decision. Not a decision made out of commitment to a format, or to a perception of what the fans want. It sounds like he saw it as the experience of seeing the movie he directed would benefit from that one extra tag. And I think he was right. But, even if I didn't like that scene, I think he was right to trust his own instincts. To tell the story he is telling, not see himself as challenged to repeat the format of the first Avengers moment, because the fans expect more of the same right down to a cute bit at the very end. I would rather him focus on serving the story than serving the fans.
Hopefully the decisions he made this time were similarly his own. I think that worked out pretty well in Avengers. Will he succeed as well this time? Well, we'll see.
I find it very interesting that neither of you sees any value in including the increasingly expected post-credits scenes. There will definitely be a mid-credits scene @DoctorDoom, of that I'm certain, but this is about the scene/tease that takes place when all the credits are over. @David_D you appear quite zealous in your defense of NOT including one. That's unexpected, but not surprising. For the record, I'm certainly not saying that scenes like Howard the Duck's or the shawarma scene were useful to much degree, but they certainly have the potential to be - AND, most importantly the audience has come to expect this end scene and they will remain in their seats to see it. Marvel has conditioned there to be a captive audience all the way to the very end of the credits.
I thought seeing the collector at the end of Thor 2 felt like they were really straining to get us thinking about Guardians. It felt out of tone with the rest of the movie, and out of character for the characters, as I saw no justification at all for the Asgardians to trust whatever that McGuffin was (I forget which super-item it was) to the Collector. I would have preferred no stinger to that one. (And I think I remember hearing that the director of Thor 2 didn't like it either, and it wasn't even shot by him, but this was awhile ago, so I may be remembering that incorrectly)
There are enough ads for these films. I would rather Whedon, and the rest of the filmmakers, get to use their time to tell us the story they want to tell, and not have to carry water for the marketing department. There are trailers before the movie, and available constantly online. I'm fine with them letting Whedon make the movie he wants to make.
So am I, but they've demonstrated that they don't have to use the same director. Any 2nd unit director can shoot these scenes, and has. For the record, there has been an end credits tease or scene in Iron Man 1, The Incredible Hulk, Iron Man 2, Thor, Captain America 1, The Avengers, Iron Man 3, Thor 2, Captain America 2, and Guardians of the Galaxy. Even X-Men DOFP and Amazing Spider-Man 2 included one. So this would essentially be the only Marvel Studios theatrical film in the last 7 years to NOT include one. And while Marvel's Phase 1 featured much more serious teases than the ones in Phase 2, there will still be butts in the the seats waiting for the end credits scene/tease that moviegoers have been conditioned to expect, regardless of this press release.
Of course Marvel already has us wrapped around their fingers and don't need to tease us for future films, they know we'll go anyway. Nonetheless, not showing the obligatory end-scene when thousands of people will still be staring at the screen with their warm sodas is a missed opportunity at most, and a let down at worst.
I've got to be honest, some times I feel like you try to create controversy where there isn't any. It's the whole Marvel phasing out X-Men & FF thing again.
You are correct, since Iron Man there have been post-credit scenes to build the MCU. Since Avengers, however, it's been the mid-credit scene that's been expanding the MCU. Phase II's post-credit scenes have been a one-off from the film itself:
- Avengers had shwarma - IM3 had Banner - Thor: TDW had Thor return to Earth (side note: Hemsworth's actual wife stood in for Portman) - CA: WS had Barnes at the Cap exhibit - GotG had Howard the Duck
Why should we get 2 credit scenes to expand the MCU? At what point are we not breaking up the credits with each music change?
I think after EDIT (edit: tough crowd) RUMORED SPOILER & a splintered team a post-credit scene one-off will be out of place.
I agree that the shawarma scene at the end of Avengers didn't expand the MU (the Thanos scene had already done that) or change my life. But it didn't have to.
It was a nice little callback, paying off a joke that was probably set up 30 minutes before, and I think the stakes of the movie had been weighty enough that, after saving the day, it was a joke that felt earned.
More than just a joke, it helped make the characters feel so human.
Wouldn't it be funny if a few stubborn souls stayed till the end of the credits, only to find that the last piece of writing was 'I told you so.' signed Joss Whedon.
Wouldn't it be funny if a few stubborn souls stayed till the end of the credits, only to find that the last piece of writing was 'I told you so.' signed Joss Whedon.
I've got to be honest, some times I feel like you try to create controversy where there isn't any. It's the whole Marvel phasing out X-Men & FF thing again.
I'm not sure how being somewhat skeptical that Whedon is breaking the pattern is creating controversy @Matt, or how backing up my belief is creating some kind of controversy, but until this announcement this week I've been fanboy for this film - and still am. Can people of opposite opinions not enjoy some healthy debate on the merits of a post credits scene without it being seen as a fuss?
I guess we could all debate single Spider-Man vs married Spider-Man or DC vs Marvel which you might prefer, but I sometimes think nitpicking is fun, especially when it isn't complaining. If it has sounded that way, all apologies. My business is media production along with marketing, so of course I see this the way that I do.
I'm the first to admit that I'm no fan-fic writer, but a post-credits scene could begin with a back of the head shot of a guy watching CNN coverage of the Avengers split, his index finger presses send on his smart phone, then we hear the words "Nick, it's me. I'm coming in," and the camera reveals Michael Douglas. Or maybe it's T'Challa arriving in NYC looking out at the devastation, or it's Thanos in space suggesting "it is all nearly within my grasp". Or even Spider-Man somehow. There are a myriad of ways to tickle the fans with a post credits scene.
I'm just guessing, but I have the feeling that perhaps this Avengers film will end on a bit of a downer. Maybe inserting a light scene, or a blatant promo for something else, just felt wrong to Whedon.
I wholeheartedly agree with @chrisw as well as @David_D here. This scenario is certainly something I hadn't considered before. There may be no room for a post credits scene which wouldn't break the tone. Maybe they've struggled to come up with anything that fit. Maybe a dead-ending IS the right way to end it.
I'm the first to admit that I'm no fan-fic writer, but a post-credits scene could begin with a back of the head shot of a guy watching CNN coverage of the Avengers split, his index finger presses send on his smart phone, then we hear the words "Nick, it's me. I'm coming in," and the camera reveals Michael Douglas. Or maybe it's T'Challa arriving in NYC looking out at the devastation, or it's Thanos in space suggesting "it is all nearly within my grasp". Or even Spider-Man somehow. There are a myriad of ways to tickle the fans with a post credits scene.
But couldn't any of those things you are imagining be in the tag that Feige confirmed WILL be at the end of Avengers? Or simply at the end of the movie itself?
You are correct, since Iron Man there have been post-credit scenes to build the MCU. Since Avengers, however, it's been the mid-credit scene that's been expanding the MCU. Phase II's post-credit scenes have been a one-off from the film itself:
- Avengers had shwarma - IM3 had Banner - Thor: TDW had Thor return to Earth (side note: Hemsworth's actual wife stood in for Portman) - CA: WS had Barnes at the Cap exhibit - GotG had Howard the Duck
This is one of the points I should have expanded on. Thanks for doing do.
I'm the first to admit that I'm no fan-fic writer, but a post-credits scene could begin with a back of the head shot of a guy watching CNN coverage of the Avengers split, his index finger presses send on his smart phone, then we hear the words "Nick, it's me. I'm coming in," and the camera reveals Michael Douglas. Or maybe it's T'Challa arriving in NYC looking out at the devastation, or it's Thanos in space suggesting "it is all nearly within my grasp". Or even Spider-Man somehow. There are a myriad of ways to tickle the fans with a post credits scene.
But couldn't any of those things you are imagining be in the tag that Feige confirmed WILL be at the end of Avengers? Or simply at the end of the movie itself?
Either or. Why not both? But if, as @chrisw said, the tone doesn't allow it, then it would depend on what the mid credits scene is. The post credits could be another shawarma or something darker...
I'm the first to admit that I'm no fan-fic writer, but a post-credits scene could begin with a back of the head shot of a guy watching CNN coverage of the Avengers split, his index finger presses send on his smart phone, then we hear the words "Nick, it's me. I'm coming in," and the camera reveals Michael Douglas. Or maybe it's T'Challa arriving in NYC looking out at the devastation, or it's Thanos in space suggesting "it is all nearly within my grasp". Or even Spider-Man somehow. There are a myriad of ways to tickle the fans with a post credits scene.
But couldn't any of those things you are imagining be in the tag that Feige confirmed WILL be at the end of Avengers? Or simply at the end of the movie itself?
Either or. Why not both? But if, as @chrisw said, the tone doesn't allow it, then it would depend on what the mid credits scene is. The post credits could be another shawarma or something darker...
Well, then wouldn't TWO credit scenes that break the Phase II pattern of "mid" expanding & "post" a one-off be just that...breaking what is expected?
And if there were still TWO credit scenes and both expanded the MCU wouldn't that also be breaking the pattern?
And if there were two credit scenes that expanded the MCU, why not three or five? At what point is it just a montage of setup scenes? Aren't we going to see these movies regardless?
And weren't you the one complaining the return of Charles in the credit scenes of both X3 & The Wolverine was bad because it's assuming people say through the movies to even see the scenes to understand how he was in DOFP?!
I've got to be honest, some times I feel like you try to create controversy where there isn't any. It's the whole Marvel phasing out X-Men & FF thing again.
I'm not sure how being somewhat skeptical that Whedon is breaking the pattern is creating controversy @Matt, or how backing up my belief is creating some kind of controversy, but until this announcement this week I've been fanboy for this film - and still am. Can people of opposite opinions not enjoy some healthy debate on the merits of a post credits scene without it being seen as a fuss?
I guess we could all debate single Spider-Man vs married Spider-Man or DC vs Marvel which you might prefer, but I sometimes think nitpicking is fun, especially when it isn't complaining. If it has sounded that way, all apologies. My business is media production along with marketing, so of course I see this the way that I do.
I'm the first to admit that I'm no fan-fic writer, but a post-credits scene could begin with a back of the head shot of a guy watching CNN coverage of the Avengers split, his index finger presses send on his smart phone, then we hear the words "Nick, it's me. I'm coming in," and the camera reveals Michael Douglas. Or maybe it's T'Challa arriving in NYC looking out at the devastation, or it's Thanos in space suggesting "it is all nearly within my grasp". Or even Spider-Man somehow. There are a myriad of ways to tickle the fans with a post credits scene.
I'm just guessing, but I have the feeling that perhaps this Avengers film will end on a bit of a downer. Maybe inserting a light scene, or a blatant promo for something else, just felt wrong to Whedon.
I wholeheartedly agree with @chrisw as well as @David_D here. This scenario is certainly something I hadn't considered before. There may be no room for a post credits scene which wouldn't break the tone. Maybe they've struggled to come up with anything that fit. Maybe a dead-ending IS the right way to end it.
We'll find out in 3 weeks!!
Although I'm a skeptical person, I don't believe there's a conspiracy for everything. Especially when, if the trend continues, the scene expanding the MCU has been the mid-credits, we aren't really losing any opportunities by dropping the post-credit scene.
Hayley Atwell is set to be in the movie. There's no reason to believe she's not apart of the mid-credits scene to set up Ant-Man.
Well, then wouldn't TWO credit scenes that break the Phase II pattern of "mid" expanding & "post" a one-off be just that...breaking what is expected?
And if there were still TWO credit scenes and both expanded the MCU wouldn't that also be breaking the pattern?
And if there were two credit scenes that expanded the MCU, why not three or five? At what point is it just a montage of setup scenes? Aren't we going to see these movies regardless?
And weren't you the one complaining the return of Charles in the credit scenes of both X3 & The Wolverine was bad because it's assuming people say through the movies to even see the scenes to understand how he was in DOFP?!
Although I'm a skeptical person, I don't believe there's a conspiracy for everything. Especially when, if the trend continues, the scene expanding the MCU has been the mid-credits, we aren't really losing any opportunities by dropping the post-credit scene.
Hayley Atwell is set to be in the movie. There's no reason to believe she's not apart of the mid-credits scene to set up Ant-Man.
M
I think you're confused. There has been a POST credits scene and a mid credits scene in every Marvel Studio film since Iron Man 1. Two scenes. Not 3 or 5. The inconsistency of the X-Men films' credits scenes isn't the issue nor are they Marvel Studios films.
And who said there's a conspiracy? Whedon just may not want to do a post credits scene even though that breaks the tradition. That doesn't change the fact that there will be a large portion of the audience watching the screen for something. Even if it's a shawarma scene or a Howard the Duck-like scene. Why disappoint? The audience is watching now. They've been trained. My skepticism is actually just hope that it IS a head fake not a missed opportunity. I happen to like the Marvel post credits tradition both the expanding universe scenes and the silly shawarma scenes.
Well, then wouldn't TWO credit scenes that break the Phase II pattern of "mid" expanding & "post" a one-off be just that...breaking what is expected?
And if there were still TWO credit scenes and both expanded the MCU wouldn't that also be breaking the pattern?
And if there were two credit scenes that expanded the MCU, why not three or five? At what point is it just a montage of setup scenes? Aren't we going to see these movies regardless?
And weren't you the one complaining the return of Charles in the credit scenes of both X3 & The Wolverine was bad because it's assuming people say through the movies to even see the scenes to understand how he was in DOFP?!
Although I'm a skeptical person, I don't believe there's a conspiracy for everything. Especially when, if the trend continues, the scene expanding the MCU has been the mid-credits, we aren't really losing any opportunities by dropping the post-credit scene.
Hayley Atwell is set to be in the movie. There's no reason to believe she's not apart of the mid-credits scene to set up Ant-Man.
M
I think you're confused. There has been a POST credits scene and a mid credits scene in every Marvel Studio film since Iron Man 1. Two scenes. Not 3 or 5. The inconsistency of the X-Men films' credits scenes isn't the issue nor are they Marvel Studios films.
And who said there's a conspiracy? Whedon just may not want to do a post credits scene even though that breaks the tradition. That doesn't change the fact that there will be a large portion of the audience watching the screen for something. Even if it's a shawarma scene or a Howard the Duck-like scene. Why disappoint? The audience is watching now. They've been trained. My skepticism is actually just hope that it IS a head fake not a missed opportunity. I happen to like the Marvel post credits tradition both the expanding universe scenes and the silly shawarma scenes.
No, it's you who are confused. Go back & rewatch Phase I. They're all post-credits. Avengers introduced a mid-credit scene. If you think I'm incorrect, then tell me the scenes I'm missing:
Iron Man post-credit scene: Enter: Nick Fury Incredible Hulk: Stark & Thunderbolt Ross IM2: Thor's hammer Thor: Selvig & the Tesseract Cap: Fury & Cap discussing 'a mission'
So, where's the mid-credit scene?
Whedon broke tradition with Avengers. And if people are trained to stick it through until the lights come on, then you proved my point about the Xavier credit scenes in the X-Men movies. It doesn't matter it's not the MCU. You can't have it both ways.
Well, then wouldn't TWO credit scenes that break the Phase II pattern of "mid" expanding & "post" a one-off be just that...breaking what is expected?
And if there were still TWO credit scenes and both expanded the MCU wouldn't that also be breaking the pattern?
And if there were two credit scenes that expanded the MCU, why not three or five? At what point is it just a montage of setup scenes? Aren't we going to see these movies regardless? M
We're now sucking the life out of a forum discussion... I think I'm begining to see why you take a break from DC vs Marvel forums.
Whedon broke tradition with Avengers. And if people are trained to stick it through until the lights come on, then you proved my point about the Xavier credit scenes in the X-Men movies. It doesn't matter it's not the MCU. You can't have it both ways.
M
Thor 2 also contained a mid credits sequence as well as a post credits sequence. So did GotG, albeit both silly. No one is arguing whether a mid credits sequence is expected or necessary to expand the universe. X-Men 3 came out in 2006 and yes, it also had a post credits scene, though arguably fewer people were waiting until the end of superhero movies back then than they do now. It may have been the first superhero movie to include one, but back then no "audience training" had taken place. So what is your point of bringing that up? No one is debating that here. I only mention it because if it was the first, then ever since X-Man 3 people started telling their friends to stay till the very end. Then Iron Man 1 happened. I went and knew to expect a post credits scene, but 4/5 of the audience got up and left. That no longer is the case with more recent Marvel movies. People stay.
And whether a post credits scene is goofy or expands the universe is not even being debated. All the Marvel movies have contained a post-credits scene. It is actually considered their style now, even by other directors like Zack Snyder.
It's this expected post credits scene that Whedon isn't including. He knows folks are now expecting one or he wouldn't even bother to mention it in the first place. No one cares what the pattern is with mid-credit scenes. Even if there is or isn't a mid-credit scene, people will still wait until the end to see the post credits scene. So why break the tradition? People will be watching, so why not use the space? It's not a conspiracy, just a question.
Sheesh. This topic isn't even fun to talk about now.
Well, then wouldn't TWO credit scenes that break the Phase II pattern of "mid" expanding & "post" a one-off be just that...breaking what is expected?
And if there were still TWO credit scenes and both expanded the MCU wouldn't that also be breaking the pattern?
And if there were two credit scenes that expanded the MCU, why not three or five? At what point is it just a montage of setup scenes? Aren't we going to see these movies regardless? M
We're now sucking the life out of a forum discussion... I think I'm begining to see why you take a break from DC vs Marvel forums.
Whedon broke tradition with Avengers. And if people are trained to stick it through until the lights come on, then you proved my point about the Xavier credit scenes in the X-Men movies. It doesn't matter it's not the MCU. You can't have it both ways.
M
Thor 2 also contained a mid credits sequence as well as a post credits sequence. So did GotG, albeit both silly. No one is arguing whether a mid credits sequence is expected or necessary to expand the universe. X-Men 3 came out in 2006 and yes, it also had a post credits scene, though arguably fewer people were waiting until the end of superhero movies back then than they do now. It may have been the first superhero movie to include one, but back then no "audience training" had taken place. So what is your point of bringing that up? No one is debating that here. I only mention it because if it was the first, then ever since X-Man 3 people started telling their friends to stay till the very end. Then Iron Man 1 happened. I went and knew to expect a post credits scene, but 4/5 of the audience got up and left. That no longer is the case with more recent Marvel movies. People stay.
And whether a post credits scene is goofy or expands the universe is not even being debated. All the Marvel movies have contained a post-credits scene. It is actually considered their style now, even by other directors like Zack Snyder.
It's this expected post credits scene that Whedon isn't including. He knows folks are now expecting one or he wouldn't even bother to mention it in the first place. No one cares what the pattern is with mid-credit scenes. Even if there is or isn't a mid-credit scene, people will still wait until the end to see the post credits scene. So why break the tradition? People will be watching, so why not use the space? It's not a conspiracy, just a question.
Sheesh. This topic isn't even fun to talk about now.
There's the levity this discussion's been missing :)
Sucking the life out of the thread or just jumping to the finish line?
Thor 2 & GotG are both Phase II, so I'll take it that you concede we did only had 1 credit since in the movies prior to Avengers in Phase I. Are people really "trained" at this point? Whenever one of the movies come out, aren't we still posting how people left prematurely? I'm betting about the same number of people I normally see when the lights are lit will be the same for this movie & Ant-Man.
Were people actually "trained" to wait out the credits between X-Men 3 & Iron Man? Here's a list of cbm between X3 & IM:
Ghost Rider FF:RotSS Spider-man 3
Of those, only the FF movie had a credit scene; 1/3rd. If it wasn't for running into Kev on his way out of Iron Man, I don't even think I would've stayed. Speaking of the Iron Man franchise; we survived only getting one credit scene in IM3 (which was a one-off), we can survive not getting another one in AoU.
Comments
“There is nothing at the very end. And that’s not a fake-out,” Whedon says. “We want people to know so they don’t sit there for 10 minutes and then go: ‘Son of a bitch! I’ll kill them!’”
He's saying don't sit there expecting something. He isn't saying not to bother with the credits.
You don't want them to go from "whee!" to then feeling cheated.
As I recall, they shot the Avengers shawarma scene a mere two weeks or so before the movie launched. It wouldn't be too late or difficult to insert a scene of interesting dialogue foreshadowing Ant-Man or even Doctor Strange. I'm still not convinced Kevin and Josh are being 100% truthful, but if it is true, then I'll admit that we were forewarned.
Winter Soldier hinted at the twins with his. Thor: Dark World's mid-credits pointed towards Guardians of the Galaxy.
I don't see anywhere in the article where Whedon says he won't be doing that. (Not that I expect him to comment on the content of the mid-credits scene)
"Ever since 2008’s Iron Man concluded with a surprise scene of Samuel L. Jackson’s Nick Fury revealing to Robert Downey Jr.’s Tony Stark that he has “become part of a bigger universe,” fans of the Marvel Cinematic Universe have known to stick around to the very end for a surprise.
But this time …"
The way the article leads off, it makes you think there won't be a universe-building scene. But then it then goes to talk about the Schwarma scene. That's something that's totally different.
Does anyone else see what I see, or am I just crazier than usual?
Personally, I would rather them have only the stingers that enhance the enjoyment of the movie you are actually sitting there watching. That they be a PART of the story, not just ad space.
The ones in Avengers, for example, were great-- we got a glimpse of where the failed alien invasion fits in to a growing story, we got a glimpse of Thanos, which will pay off later, in future movies about the Avengers. And then the shawarma scene was playful, and paid off as a joke set up earlier in the movie.
I thought seeing the collector at the end of Thor 2 felt like they were really straining to get us thinking about Guardians. It felt out of tone with the rest of the movie, and out of character for the characters, as I saw no justification at all for the Asgardians to trust whatever that McGuffin was (I forget which super-item it was) to the Collector. I would have preferred no stinger to that one. (And I think I remember hearing that the director of Thor 2 didn't like it either, and it wasn't even shot by him, but this was awhile ago, so I may be remembering that incorrectly)
There are enough ads for these films. I would rather Whedon, and the rest of the filmmakers, get to use their time to tell us the story they want to tell, and not have to carry water for the marketing department. There are trailers before the movie, and available constantly online. I'm fine with them letting Whedon make the movie he wants to make.
Of course Marvel already has us wrapped around their fingers and don't need to tease us for future films, they know we'll go anyway. Nonetheless, not showing the obligatory end-scene when thousands of people will still be staring at the screen with their warm sodas is a missed opportunity at most, and a let down at worst.
I would rather him skip the stinger at the very end if he didn't have one that was worth waiting for then just do one because that is the format. And I get what you're saying-- there might be some people who wait and are bummed if they don't get one. But there is also a negative to waiting and getting a lame one. I've been in the crowd when that has happened, too.
If I am zealous, it is not because I have a strong feeling about these scenes one way or the other. Rather, I am zealous about letting the filmmakers be in charge of the storytelling experience from beginning to end. It seems like Marvel is ahead of some other studios in letting their people do that. It is Whedon's job as to give us a great Avengers movie. Not to sell us Ant-Man. I look to him to be a storyteller, not an advertiser. And, sure, sometimes you can do both. But if he organically didn't feel like it fit this time, then that's fine with me.
There are enough rules to how movies, especially genre ones, are structured and made. I don't need "There must be the stinger at the end because that is expected" to be a new one. And if it turns out there isn't one for 'Ultron and the opening weekend crowd waited for it anyway, they'll survive. And then maybe the next Marvel director (perhaps one with less juice than Whedon) won't feel they *have* to do one because that is the audience expectation.
Pre-Credit. Mid-Credit. Post-Credit. I'll take them all.
I think these little scenes and some of the marvel one-shots are fun and add a lot to the experience of seeing these films. The continuity of the film universe is as important as it USED TO BE and STILL SHOULD BE in the comics.
The scenes are fun. I like them. I think a lot of fans like the little hints and teases and bits and pieces of what's to come. Even if it's not specific/detailed, but just high level stuff, or maybe a bit generic, it's still great.
I've already got my Avengers and Avengers: A of U double feature tickets purchased. For the price, I'll take all the fun I can get.
Spiderman swinging through Mid-town! The Black Panther having a council meeting with his people! A glimpse of something that foreshadows Carol Danvers! I don't think any of that is serving the marketing department as much as it is serving the crowds seeing the movies.
IMHO - If the fans want it, give it to them.
And I think @chrisw makes a good point-- if, as we are guessing, this movie ends with a rift between the characters, leading up to Cap: Civil War, then it might not be the right time for a little cute scene at the end. Just like--to pretend for a second there were these things decades ago-- a fun character/relationship moment would have fit after Star Wars, but not so much after Empire.
I agree that the shawarma scene at the end of Avengers didn't expand the MU (the Thanos scene had already done that) or change my life. But it didn't have to.
It was a nice little callback, paying off a joke that was probably set up 30 minutes before, and I think the stakes of the movie had been weighty enough that, after saving the day, it was a joke that felt earned.
From the stories of how quickly, and late in the process that one was shot and added, it sounds like, organically, he felt the movie could use that last beat at the end. To me, that sounds like a storytelling decision. Not a decision made out of commitment to a format, or to a perception of what the fans want. It sounds like he saw it as the experience of seeing the movie he directed would benefit from that one extra tag. And I think he was right. But, even if I didn't like that scene, I think he was right to trust his own instincts. To tell the story he is telling, not see himself as challenged to repeat the format of the first Avengers moment, because the fans expect more of the same right down to a cute bit at the very end. I would rather him focus on serving the story than serving the fans.
Hopefully the decisions he made this time were similarly his own. I think that worked out pretty well in Avengers. Will he succeed as well this time? Well, we'll see.
I've got to be honest, some times I feel like you try to create controversy where there isn't any. It's the whole Marvel phasing out X-Men & FF thing again.
You are correct, since Iron Man there have been post-credit scenes to build the MCU. Since Avengers, however, it's been the mid-credit scene that's been expanding the MCU. Phase II's post-credit scenes have been a one-off from the film itself:
- Avengers had shwarma
- IM3 had Banner
- Thor: TDW had Thor return to Earth (side note: Hemsworth's actual wife stood in for Portman)
- CA: WS had Barnes at the Cap exhibit
- GotG had Howard the Duck
Why should we get 2 credit scenes to expand the MCU? At what point are we not breaking up the credits with each music change?
I think after EDIT (edit: tough crowd) RUMORED SPOILER & a splintered team a post-credit scene one-off will be out of place.
M
I guess we could all debate single Spider-Man vs married Spider-Man or DC vs Marvel which you might prefer, but I sometimes think nitpicking is fun, especially when it isn't complaining. If it has sounded that way, all apologies. My business is media production along with marketing, so of course I see this the way that I do.
I'm the first to admit that I'm no fan-fic writer, but a post-credits scene could begin with a back of the head shot of a guy watching CNN coverage of the Avengers split, his index finger presses send on his smart phone, then we hear the words "Nick, it's me. I'm coming in," and the camera reveals Michael Douglas. Or maybe it's T'Challa arriving in NYC looking out at the devastation, or it's Thanos in space suggesting "it is all nearly within my grasp". Or even Spider-Man somehow. There are a myriad of ways to tickle the fans with a post credits scene. I wholeheartedly agree with @chrisw as well as @David_D here. This scenario is certainly something I hadn't considered before. There may be no room for a post credits scene which wouldn't break the tone. Maybe they've struggled to come up with anything that fit. Maybe a dead-ending IS the right way to end it.
We'll find out in 3 weeks!!
And if there were still TWO credit scenes and both expanded the MCU wouldn't that also be breaking the pattern?
And if there were two credit scenes that expanded the MCU, why not three or five? At what point is it just a montage of setup scenes? Aren't we going to see these movies regardless?
And weren't you the one complaining the return of Charles in the credit scenes of both X3 & The Wolverine was bad because it's assuming people say through the movies to even see the scenes to understand how he was in DOFP?!
M
Hayley Atwell is set to be in the movie. There's no reason to believe she's not apart of the mid-credits scene to set up Ant-Man.
M
And who said there's a conspiracy? Whedon just may not want to do a post credits scene even though that breaks the tradition. That doesn't change the fact that there will be a large portion of the audience watching the screen for something. Even if it's a shawarma scene or a Howard the Duck-like scene. Why disappoint? The audience is watching now. They've been trained. My skepticism is actually just hope that it IS a head fake not a missed opportunity. I happen to like the Marvel post credits tradition both the expanding universe scenes and the silly shawarma scenes.
Iron Man post-credit scene: Enter: Nick Fury
Incredible Hulk: Stark & Thunderbolt Ross
IM2: Thor's hammer
Thor: Selvig & the Tesseract
Cap: Fury & Cap discussing 'a mission'
So, where's the mid-credit scene?
Whedon broke tradition with Avengers. And if people are trained to stick it through until the lights come on, then you proved my point about the Xavier credit scenes in the X-Men movies. It doesn't matter it's not the MCU. You can't have it both ways.
M
And whether a post credits scene is goofy or expands the universe is not even being debated. All the Marvel movies have contained a post-credits scene. It is actually considered their style now, even by other directors like Zack Snyder.
It's this expected post credits scene that Whedon isn't including. He knows folks are now expecting one or he wouldn't even bother to mention it in the first place. No one cares what the pattern is with mid-credit scenes. Even if there is or isn't a mid-credit scene, people will still wait until the end to see the post credits scene. So why break the tradition? People will be watching, so why not use the space? It's not a conspiracy, just a question.
Sheesh. This topic isn't even fun to talk about now. There's the levity this discussion's been missing :)
Thor 2 & GotG are both Phase II, so I'll take it that you concede we did only had 1 credit since in the movies prior to Avengers in Phase I. Are people really "trained" at this point? Whenever one of the movies come out, aren't we still posting how people left prematurely? I'm betting about the same number of people I normally see when the lights are lit will be the same for this movie & Ant-Man.
Were people actually "trained" to wait out the credits between X-Men 3 & Iron Man? Here's a list of cbm between X3 & IM:
Ghost Rider
FF:RotSS
Spider-man 3
Of those, only the FF movie had a credit scene; 1/3rd. If it wasn't for running into Kev on his way out of Iron Man, I don't even think I would've stayed. Speaking of the Iron Man franchise; we survived only getting one credit scene in IM3 (which was a one-off), we can survive not getting another one in AoU.
Not a big deal.
M.
I have no idea how the war in Europe is going.
M