While it might be hyperbole to say she’s DC’s fourth pillar (being as how DC really only has three pillars), I don’t think it’s all that outrageous a claim. The only other character DC has that can compete with her for that spot at the moment is the Flash. While I hate what they’ve done to the character the past few years, it is what it is, and it’s paid off for DC.
Not be sexist here, but DC has rarely even had "three pillars". Most of the time it's only had two legs to stand on. I think Harley is pretty close to being to the "third pillar" of DC publishing.
Oh, I agree with you. The Wonder Woman pillar is definitely a shaky one, but it’s one DC has been constantly trying to firm up since the ’70s. For me the character is a pillar in terms of recognition and symbolism more than in terms of financial success—much like Captain America was for Marvel from the Silver Age on. Perhaps the upcoming movie will be the the cement that finally gives Wonder Woman the strong foundation DC has been looking to establish, just as the Captain America and Avengers movies (and the Ed Brubaker comic series) seem to have done for Cap.
I hope so. I'm not a WW fan; I just like good comics. If the up-coming movie forces DC to really put top notch creators writing top notch stories then I'm all for it. It's the same with Harley Quinn. I liked her in the cartoons, but that's about as far as my fandom went. Lots of people really like her though, and if this movie continues to make DC put a really effort into the Harley-family of books then awesome. Might not be my cup of tea, but I'm pro good comics.
She’s popular for a lot of the same reasons Deadpool is popular—cartoon violence, irreverent humor, etc.—but I think she appeals to a broader audience than Deadpool.
Makes sense. I'm not really a Deadpool fan either. I enjoyed 'Deadpool's Secret Secret Wars', but I can only take so much of the character. As for Harley's appeal, what I've read is even less amusing than DP, but filled with a lot more cheesecake, which I think is a majority of the appeal.
In the right hands, Harley's books are very fun read.
Her one-shot intro during No Man's Land (I believe it was) established the character for me. Earlier on I was talking about how she does have super-powers - that's where she got 'em. And the rationale behind it was great - go ahead, Joker, treat her like dirt...she's immune to your toxins, she's more agile, stronger, faster, and if she ever...EVER...figures that out, you're a dead man.
I'm also really enjoying the current Palmiotti/Conner run (bias out the ASS because I love pretty much anything those guys touch (they keep the "fun" in funnybooks))...they made her more "anti-hero" than "villain" and it's got a fun "I Love Lucy" sitcom kind of vibe to it.
"Mad Love" is required reading. If you've never read it, you're cheating yourself. Animation-wise, Arleen Sorkin *is* the voice of her...it's tough to picture Harley with any other voice.
She's actually great in the aforementioned "Injustice" series. I was iffy about starting that one because a comic based on a video game? Pffft! But the whole thing reads like one massive "What If?" and I'm hooked...a big part of that is what the heck is Harley going to do next. And also, how the hell is she still alive when more established heroes are dead? (Yes, I know...star properties).
Is she a "fourth pillar" for the DCU? Maybe. I dunno. I hope DC doesn't pull a Marvel and give her fourteen titles like Deadpool (she already has three going on).
"Mad Love" is required reading. If you've never read it, you're cheating yourself. Animation-wise, Arleen Sorkin *is* the voice of her...it's tough to picture Harley with any other voice.
I own the HC of this and I enjoyed it, but it didn't make me fall in love with Harley. As for the newest incarnation, I know not a single DC fan will agree with me, but I don't care for Amanda Conner's art. It just doesn't do anything for me.
Her one-shot intro during No Man's Land (I believe it was) established the character for me.
Did you mean this one? Because this was a really good comic. Besides Mad Love—which I have raved about often on this forum, and which I feel is about as close to a technically perfect comic as can be produced—this one-shot is the only other Harley Quinn comic I can wholeheartedly recommend to people without some reservation.
She’s popular for a lot of the same reasons Deadpool is popular—cartoon violence, irreverent humor, etc.—but I think she appeals to a broader audience than Deadpool.
Makes sense. I'm not really a Deadpool fan either. I enjoyed 'Deadpool's Secret Secret Wars', but I can only take so much of the character. As for Harley's appeal, what I've read is even less amusing than DP, but filled with a lot more cheesecake, which I think is a majority of the appeal.
I'm not a Deadpool kind of guy either, and that’s my biggest problem with the current Harley—they’ve Deadpool-ized her a bit too much for my taste.
If the up-coming movie forces DC to really put top notch creators writing top notch stories then I'm all for it.
I don’t think they need to be forced to do this. They’ve been putting A-list talent on her books since the ’80s with George Pérez. Yes, there have been plenty of missteps along the way, but I don't think any of those were made out of neglect for the character. If anything I think many of them (Deodato, Finch) were made out of desperation to find the magical key that would unlock the door to consistent sales success.
[EDIT: And it should acknowledged that WW’s greatest asset and defense in being the third pillar is the character’s licensing revenue and potential.]
@nweathington - It was this one I was thinking of. Dealt a lot with the fact that the Joker treated her like dirt and actually had plans to off her...until the accident gave her powers that prevented him from ever killing her (in his usual manners, anyhow). He could still mentally mess with her, and IIRC Batman hinted that may be the only way he can keep her at bay, because if she ever stopped being obsessed with him and saw him for what he was...hoo boy. :)
I think she's an amusing enough character for a rogue's gallery, but I suppose it's her status as comics' only "Bad Girl" that can move boatloads of licensed merchandise (and most likely the sole reason behind Jim Lee's grandiose statement). Her merchandise fits right in with the modern "Bad-Ass Chic" trend more and more kids and adults seem to be gravitating toward. There's a reason there's been seven (and soon eight) Fast and Furious films, you know.
Capes and utility belts are being pushed aside for brass knuckles and tramp stamps.
I know not a single DC fan will agree with me, but I don't care for Amanda Conner's art. It just doesn't do anything for me.
You go to hell! You go to hell and you DIE!!!:) <- again, joking.
I think she and Palmiotti are darn near untouchable when they work together, and I like that most of the time her women look like they know their way around a sandwich. :)
@nweathington - It was this one I was thinking of. Dealt a lot with the fact that the Joker treated her like dirt and actually had plans to off her...until the accident gave her powers that prevented him from ever killing her (in his usual manners, anyhow). He could still mentally mess with her, and IIRC Batman hinted that may be the only way he can keep her at bay, because if she ever stopped being obsessed with him and saw him for what he was...hoo boy. :)
I liked what they were trying to do in the story, but I didn’t care for the actual execution. And frankly, I would have preferred them to come up with a story where Harley overcame Joker’s influence over her without her gaining superpowers. As is, it’s kind of a mixed message. “Yes, you can stand up for yourself and get out of the cycle of domestic abuse... but you’ll need to get some superpowers first.” It undermined the purpose of the story a bit in my mind.
Anyone else think there was TOO much music in this movie? I'd hate to add another "poor mans Guardians of the Galaxy" critique to the pile that already exists on the internet, but I was curious if anyone noticed it.
It wasn't bad music or even poorly chosen. It's just the sheer amount of it that bugged me. Like EVERY SCENE had it's own theme song. Like the CD version of this soundtrack should be at LEAST 2 disc....
Anyone else think there was TOO much music in this movie? I'd hate to add another "poor mans Guardians of the Galaxy" critique to the pile that already exists on the internet, but I was curious if anyone noticed it.
It wasn't bad music or even poorly chosen. It's just the sheer amount of it that bugged me. Like EVERY SCENE had it's own theme song. Like the CD version of this soundtrack should be at LEAST 2 disc....
In GotG, the music served the story and was almost its own character. This just seems like they picked as many cool songs as they could cram in.
In GotG, the music served the story and was almost its own character. This just seems like they picked as many cool songs as they could cram in.
A-men. I don't know that any movie made the soundtrack as much a character as the actors were as GotG did.
I was just thinking about this the other day, because a local radio program does a weekly show about movies, and this week’s theme was best use of music in movies. You're absolutely right that the music in GotG was very much its own character in the film. It represented his mother, and also home in general, his joy, his pain and sorrow.
I’ve been trying to think of other films that used the same approach. Star Wars comes close in that when Vader first marches onto the Rebel ship, “The Imperial March”—without words—perfectly defines everything the audience needs to know about Vader. Likewise, the music sting in Jaws is as much (or perhaps more so) the character of the shark as the physical shark itself. And I think The Crow soundtrack plays a similar (though not quite as intimate) role as the GotG soundtrack.
Anyone else think there was TOO much music in this movie? I'd hate to add another "poor mans Guardians of the Galaxy" critique to the pile that already exists on the internet, but I was curious if anyone noticed it.
It wasn't bad music or even poorly chosen. It's just the sheer amount of it that bugged me. Like EVERY SCENE had it's own theme song. Like the CD version of this soundtrack should be at LEAST 2 disc....
Yes, and the choices were so unoriginal. I don't think it's an exaggeration to say Sympathy for the Devil has been in 20 films. Also, Fortunate Son, Paranoid, Superfreak, Spirit in the Sky, Bohemian Rhapsody. If only they had added I Feel Good and Bad to the Bone, just to round out every tired song ever.
I'm sadden that it's been so poorly reviewed. It's a shame that DC keeps having this critical bomb / box office success movies, they're not going to reshuffle their creative leads until the movies start outright failing. So more mediocre movies (BvS) and bad/terrible movies (Man of Steel, Suicide Squad I suppose).
As for the Harley discussion, I agree with the consensus here, the way they've turned her into DC's Deadpool has turned me off to the character. I've tried to read some of her recent new books. I tried reading the recent Harley Quinn #1 and I just couldn't get through the entire issue. I didn't know what the hell was going on and it was just a goofie mess.
This is not the character Paul Dini created. That Harley was more than a punchline.
I'm sadden that it's been so poorly reviewed. It's a shame that DC keeps having this critical bomb / box office success movies, they're not going to reshuffle their creative leads until the movies start outright failing. So more mediocre movies (BvS) and bad/terrible movies (Man of Steel, Suicide Squad I suppose).
I'm sadden that it's been so poorly reviewed. It's a shame that DC keeps having this critical bomb / box office success movies, they're not going to reshuffle their creative leads until the movies start outright failing. So more mediocre movies (BvS) and bad/terrible movies (Man of Steel, Suicide Squad I suppose).
You feel BvS is the best movie of the 3?
I haven't seen Suicide Squad yet, just assuming it is bad based off reviews and consensus. I do think BvS was better than Man of Steel.
I'm sadden that it's been so poorly reviewed. It's a shame that DC keeps having this critical bomb / box office success movies, they're not going to reshuffle their creative leads until the movies start outright failing. So more mediocre movies (BvS) and bad/terrible movies (Man of Steel, Suicide Squad I suppose).
You feel BvS is the best movie of the 3?
I haven't seen Suicide Squad yet, just assuming it is bad based off reviews and consensus. I do think BvS was better than Man of Steel.
Critic reviews? Whose consensus? Just curious. I've only see discussion about the movie here & Twitter (aside from a DC specific website). I won't see it until Netflix...or at least until most of its YouTube-able.
I've seen 85% of BvS from YouTube; I've liked 10%. As a Batman fan who never cared for Kent; Man of Steel made me like Kent. BvS made me hate Batman. I can't give an opinion on SS because I haven't seen it.
One bit of anecdotal data: the local reviewer gave Suicide Squad 1/2 star. That’s right—a half a star out of a possible five. He’s not a huge fan of the superhero films, but he’s usually about half a star lower than my personal ratings. And for contrast, he gave BvS three stars. I thought it funny that one of his biggest complaints was that he felt the movie needed more of the Joker. Maybe that was because he thought the actress playing Enchantress was terrible. The only things he liked about the movie were Viola Davis’ performance, and he thought Robbie was pretty good.
Critic reviews? Whose consensus? Just curious. I've only see discussion about the movie here & Twitter (aside from a DC specific website). I won't see it until Netflix...or at least until most of its YouTube-able.
It got 27% on Rotten Tomatoes which is pretty darn low. Also here. Even my wife, who doesn't read reviews or is part of the "geek culture" at all heard that it was bad.
I've seen 85% of BvS from YouTube; I've liked 10%. As a Batman fan who never cared for Kent; Man of Steel made me like Kent. BvS made me hate Batman. I can't give an opinion on SS because I haven't seen it.
Just to be clear, I think BvS was a bad movie. I just think it was less bad than Man of Steel, which had very few redeeming qualities to me. I agree that Cavil was good in it, he's good in BvS as well.
BvS didn't make me *hate* Batman, but I agree that his character was not good. I still need an explanation of why the world's best detective only figured out that Superman is a good guy because their mothers share the same first name.
That's a pretty big deal as I understand you to be a fairly serious Batman fan.
@Matt is a serious Batman fanboy - with the notable exclusions of at least the silver age batman, the comic book version of batman since Morrison, and Adam West Batman.
That's a pretty big deal as I understand you to be a fairly serious Batman fan.
@Matt is a serious Batman fanboy - with the notable exclusions of at least the silver age batman, the comic book version of batman since Morrison, and Adam West Batman.
:smile:
Don’t forget the animated Brave & the Bold Batman!
One bit of anecdotal data: the local reviewer gave Suicide Squad 1/2 star. That’s right—a half a star out of a possible five. He’s not a huge fan of the superhero films, but he’s usually about half a star lower than my personal ratings. And for contrast, he gave BvS three stars. I thought it funny that one of his biggest complaints was that he felt the movie needed more of the Joker. Maybe that was because he thought the actress playing Enchantress was terrible. The only things he liked about the movie were Viola Davis’ performance, and he thought Robbie was pretty good.
That's one of the reasons I only read reviews for spoilers & never an assessment. I don't care for Shane Kelly chick flix or musicals. Because of that, I'm overly critical of them. I wouldn't want to have opinions generated by fanboy or those who dislike genres.
Critic reviews? Whose consensus? Just curious. I've only see discussion about the movie here & Twitter (aside from a DC specific website). I won't see it until Netflix...or at least until most of its YouTube-able.
It got 27% on Rotten Tomatoes which is pretty darn low. Also here. Even my wife, who doesn't read reviews or is part of the "geek culture" at all heard that it was bad.
I've seen 85% of BvS from YouTube; I've liked 10%. As a Batman fan who never cared for Kent; Man of Steel made me like Kent. BvS made me hate Batman. I can't give an opinion on SS because I haven't seen it.
Just to be clear, I think BvS was a bad movie. I just think it was less bad than Man of Steel, which had very few redeeming qualities to me. I agree that Cavil was good in it, he's good in BvS as well.
BvS didn't make me *hate* Batman, but I agree that his character was not good. I still need an explanation of why the world's best detective only figured out that Superman is a good guy because their mothers share the same first name.
The movie so far is doing well at the box office; kind of the Trump effect in the primaries. That's why I never put faith in them. My tastes aren't going to be dictated by a critic.
MoS was the first time I thought Kent was really interesting; at least the first 2/3rds of the movie. The 10% of BvS I enjoyed was the Kent & the Diana stuff.
Lex is my favorite DC villain & I found his stuff utterly unwatchable.
That's a pretty big deal as I understand you to be a fairly serious Batman fan.
@Matt is a serious Batman fanboy - with the notable exclusions of at least the silver age batman, the comic book version of batman since Morrison, and Adam West Batman.
That's a pretty big deal as I understand you to be a fairly serious Batman fan.
@Matt is a serious Batman fanboy - with the notable exclusions of at least the silver age batman, the comic book version of batman since Morrison, and Adam West Batman.
:smile:
Don’t forget the animated Brave & the Bold Batman!
Comments
It's the same with Harley Quinn. I liked her in the cartoons, but that's about as far as my fandom went. Lots of people really like her though, and if this movie continues to make DC put a really effort into the Harley-family of books then awesome. Might not be my cup of tea, but I'm pro good comics.
Her one-shot intro during No Man's Land (I believe it was) established the character for me. Earlier on I was talking about how she does have super-powers - that's where she got 'em. And the rationale behind it was great - go ahead, Joker, treat her like dirt...she's immune to your toxins, she's more agile, stronger, faster, and if she ever...EVER...figures that out, you're a dead man.
I'm also really enjoying the current Palmiotti/Conner run (bias out the ASS because I love pretty much anything those guys touch (they keep the "fun" in funnybooks))...they made her more "anti-hero" than "villain" and it's got a fun "I Love Lucy" sitcom kind of vibe to it.
"Mad Love" is required reading. If you've never read it, you're cheating yourself. Animation-wise, Arleen Sorkin *is* the voice of her...it's tough to picture Harley with any other voice.
She's actually great in the aforementioned "Injustice" series. I was iffy about starting that one because a comic based on a video game? Pffft! But the whole thing reads like one massive "What If?" and I'm hooked...a big part of that is what the heck is Harley going to do next. And also, how the hell is she still alive when more established heroes are dead? (Yes, I know...star properties).
Is she a "fourth pillar" for the DCU? Maybe. I dunno. I hope DC doesn't pull a Marvel and give her fourteen titles like Deadpool (she already has three going on).
[EDIT: And it should acknowledged that WW’s greatest asset and defense in being the third pillar is the character’s licensing revenue and potential.]
@nweathington - It was this one I was thinking of. Dealt a lot with the fact that the Joker treated her like dirt and actually had plans to off her...until the accident gave her powers that prevented him from ever killing her (in his usual manners, anyhow). He could still mentally mess with her, and IIRC Batman hinted that may be the only way he can keep her at bay, because if she ever stopped being obsessed with him and saw him for what he was...hoo boy. :)
Capes and utility belts are being pushed aside for brass knuckles and tramp stamps.
I think she and Palmiotti are darn near untouchable when they work together, and I like that most of the time her women look like they know their way around a sandwich. :)
But again, I am horrendously biased. :)
It wasn't bad music or even poorly chosen. It's just the sheer amount of it that bugged me. Like EVERY SCENE had it's own theme song. Like the CD version of this soundtrack should be at LEAST 2 disc....
I’ve been trying to think of other films that used the same approach. Star Wars comes close in that when Vader first marches onto the Rebel ship, “The Imperial March”—without words—perfectly defines everything the audience needs to know about Vader. Likewise, the music sting in Jaws is as much (or perhaps more so) the character of the shark as the physical shark itself. And I think The Crow soundtrack plays a similar (though not quite as intimate) role as the GotG soundtrack.
This is not the character Paul Dini created. That Harley was more than a punchline.
I've seen 85% of BvS from YouTube; I've liked 10%. As a Batman fan who never cared for Kent; Man of Steel made me like Kent. BvS made me hate Batman. I can't give an opinion on SS because I haven't seen it.
BvS didn't make me *hate* Batman, but I agree that his character was not good. I still need an explanation of why the world's best detective only figured out that Superman is a good guy because their mothers share the same first name.
:smile:
MoS was the first time I thought Kent was really interesting; at least the first 2/3rds of the movie. The 10% of BvS I enjoyed was the Kent & the Diana stuff.
Lex is my favorite DC villain & I found his stuff utterly unwatchable.