From this day forth Alicia Keys should stop singing "Girl on Fire". Ohio Players should probably take note too. Fire has been used to kill a lot of people of all races and religions through time and there were many ways to kill black folks in the day. I just find the author's analogy nit-picky. There's a big difference between someone being set afire and someone having the power of fire.
Nice, but actually music isn't the same as a visual. And being on fire probably looks a lot like being engulfed in the power of fire, except your expressions. You have a good point though. Maybe you can pass that on to the author Hashim. His twitter is www.twitter.com/user/NeverDauntedNet
And I am waiting to hear why Josh Trank cast Michael B. Jordan in the role especially since he worked with him. There's a part of me that says because of his talent.
From this day forth Alicia Keys should stop singing "Girl on Fire". Ohio Players should probably take note too. Fire has been used to kill a lot of people of all races and religions through time and there were many ways to kill black folks in the day. I just find the author's analogy nit-picky. There's a big difference between someone being set afire and someone having the power of fire.
Nice, but actually music isn't the same as a visual. And being on fire probably looks a lot like being engulfed in the power of fire, except your expressions. You have a good point though. Maybe you can pass that on to the author Hashim. His twitter is www.twitter.com/user/NeverDauntedNet
And I am waiting to hear why Josh Trank cast Michael B. Jordan in the role especially since he worked with him. There's a part of me that says because of his talent.
I'm sure Trank would agree with that part of you.
Holy Crap! I just went to that guy's twitter feed and he just tweeted that Harold Ramis died!
From this day forth Alicia Keys should stop singing "Girl on Fire". Ohio Players should probably take note too. Fire has been used to kill a lot of people of all races and religions through time and there were many ways to kill black folks in the day. I just find the author's analogy nit-picky. There's a big difference between someone being set afire and someone having the power of fire.
Nice, but actually music isn't the same as a visual. And being on fire probably looks a lot like being engulfed in the power of fire, except your expressions. You have a good point though. Maybe you can pass that on to the author Hashim. His twitter is www.twitter.com/user/NeverDauntedNet
And I am waiting to hear why Josh Trank cast Michael B. Jordan in the role especially since he worked with him. There's a part of me that says because of his talent.
I'm sure Trank would agree with that part of you.
I exchanged a couple of tweets with the author of the article. We agreed that there is a difference but he stuck with his view that the imagery is his problem. I didn't see it that way.
I've been thinking about this whole thread & I've come to realize, aside from the X-men movies, I'm only interested in Marvel Studio produced movies. Had the original movie been release in 2015, I don't think I'd see it.
First, I'm not a FF fan.
Second, I like the notion of an interacting movie universe. I always thought the first movie could have had Tobey MacGuire standing in the crowd & take pictures. No dialogue, no quick-change, etc.
The casting direction has no baring on whether or not I'll see it.
In 1961, when the original Fantastic Four debuted in their eponymous series from Marvel Comics, they were a quartet of Caucasian people, mostly adults with one teenager. Co-created by two giants of the comic book industry, Stan Lee and the deceased Jack Kirby, the FF was perfectly designed to speak to younger and older audiences while reflecting a society that was caught between, among other things, a celebrity culture and The Space Race. Next year, the latest reboot of 20th Century Fox's "Fantastic Four" film franchise will arrive in theaters, but one of the main characters will be Black.
And now, the inevitable has been unleashed -- the cosmic ray storm of opinion across the cyber-galactic spaceways of social media. You think it's because the formerly blond Caucasian character of Johnny Storm is Black... but it's not.
It's because you haven't been brainwashed in the right sequence. Please allow me to explain.
In the year 2000, Marvel Comics started the publishing initiative that would revamp their decades-old characters in modern times, making them fresh and interesting to a new audience.
To a NEW audience.
That initiative was called the Ultimate line of comics. It started with "Ultimate Spider-Man," which was followed by "Ultimate X-Men," but the title of import in this point is called "The Ultimates."
A modern take on a super-group that used to be called "The Avengers," The Ultimates breathed new life into Iron Man (star of three blockbuster Marvel Cinematic Universe films), Captain America (star of one MCU film, with another on the horizon), Thor (star of two MCU films), and a number of others.
The team was led by Nicholas Fury, the superspy leader of the most powerful government organization you wish you worked for, S.H.I.E.L.D., and originally when Nick Fury was created in those '60s I referred to earlier, he was Caucasian -- but in The Ultimates of the 21st Century, Nick Fury was made Black.
Not only was he Black, he was modeled, in look and manner of speech, after badass actor Samuel L. Jackson, making Ultimate Nick Fury the Ultimate Black Man in the World.
"The Ultimates" sold through the roof, purchased by me and over a hundred thousand other people, issue after issue, so that six years later, when Samuel L. Jackson appeared as Nick Fury in a cameo after the end credits of the first "Iron Man" film in 2008, the fan community lost its collective mind.
By the time "The Avengers" came out four years later, we were already tenderized and massaged and manipulated by Hollywood to accept, without question, the Black version of a Caucasian character created almost fifty years earlier.
But... with the Fantastic Four, Marvel Comics goofed.
They launched the "Ultimate Fantastic Four" comic book in 2004, again as a way to reintroduce these characters to the fan base while making them fresh for a new audience, but they left all of the characters Caucasian.
If they had made the Ultimate Johnny Storm Black in the comics a decade ago, you would have had a decade to complain about it, buy it so you could complain about it with authentic knowledge, become exhausted, get over it, and accept next year's "Fantastic Four" With That Black Actor From That Critically-Acclaimed Film with a little less stress and anger.
However, they did not, and so, to paraphrase the words of Denzel Washington as Malcolm X by way of Spike Lee, you feel like you've been had. Took. Hornswaggled. Bamboozled.
Or maybe you feel that Johnny Storm is a character of which you have some ownership, purchased in the currency of childhood memories and nostalgia, blissfully ignoring the inescapable fact that "Johnny Storm" and "Fantastic Four" are names of intellectual properties owned by a big corporation and licensed out to other corporations for use and exploitation.
So really, his ethnicity, sexual orientation, and even gender are all subject to change if Those With The Power choose to do so.
Or maybe you feel like one Black person in a cast changes the entire nature of an idea in amazing alchemical fashion, much like your feelings about the United States of America, or like Joshua's feelings about Troy in season two of "Community."
Or maybe you realize that out of the millions of people who purchase movie tickets to blockbuster superhero films, most of them do not read the Fantastic Four comic and do not know about the characters and do not have any pre-conceived notions of what it is supposed to be, other than something interesting enough to justify the cost of the ticket and maybe the DVD some months later.
And there are a number of other possibilities for points of view on this issue, but at the core of this thing we're arguing about called "The Fantastic Four" are core themes which supersede ethnicity.
Stick by your family, even if they drive you crazy.
Stand by your loved ones, even when you feel like sitting down.
Hold their hands and enter the gates of Hell, fighting any and all enemies with your last breath.
This is the 21st Century.
At least twelve percent of the American population is Black. The President is Black. Olivia Pope is Black. Almost half of the "Fast & Furious" team is Black.
And don't forget Black Twitter. Yes, Black people have carved out their own section of Twitter.
Black people will have a projected buying power of 1.1 trillion dollars by next year. That's what this is about. Not your nostalgia or prejudices or self-centeredness or strange sense of ownership. Demographics, buying power, and spending tendencies.
And with that realization, as we all simmer down from the one million degree nova blast that our beloved Johnny Storm is known for, let's admit a few things:
We're going to buy tickets to see this film.
Not all of us will leave the theater happy, or emotionally unscathed.
Some of us will be pleasantly surprised.
The Powers That Be know all of this, and they're counting on it. So for all of you who can't accept it, Hollywood is not listening to you. The best bet for all of us would be for comic book publishers to make sure there are no more exclusively Caucasian casts in the comic books. That way, when you get someone of color in a movie or TV show, it won't be an aberration. It'll be a perfect translation.
Pete, its echoing what I've been saying since Man of Steel; comic book movies aren't made for comic book readers. They are made for the general public.
Meg has never asked me if any of the comic book movies we see is accurate with the source material. Frankly, she doesn't care. And if she doesn't care, but enjoyed herself enough to buy the Blu-ray & see any sequels, then its a win for me.
Side step here; has there been any indication who actually owns the rights to Black Panther? And Namor, for that matter?
Would either or both actually be lumped with the FF like the Skrull are?
M
Panther is owned by Marvel, Namor by Universal.
Here's a neat little graphic somebody made up for it:
And here's a little more detailed breakdown from another website:
20th Century Fox
Daredevil: Daredevil/Matt Murdock, Elektra (Natchios), The Kingpin/Wilson Fisk, Bullseye, Jack Murdock, Karen Page, Ben Urich Elektra: Christine Cord/Tatoo, Typhoid Mary/Marry Alice Walker, Kirigi, Stick, Stone Fantastic Four: Doctor Doom/Victor von Doom, Human Torch/Johnny Storm, Invisible Woman/Susan Storm, Mr. Fantastic/Dr. Reed Richards, The Thing/Ben Grimm, Nova/Frankie Raye, Alicia Masters, Willie Lumpkin X-Men Mutants: [Agent Zero/Maverick/David North], Angel/Warren Worthington III, Arclight/Phillippa Sontag, Beast/Dr. Henry Phillip “Hank” McCoy, [Blob/Frederick J. Dukes], [Bolt/Christopher Bradley], Callisto, Colossus/Piotr Nikolaievitch Rasputin, Cyclops/Scott Summers, [Deadpool/Wade Wilson], Emma (Grace) Frost, Jean Grey/Phoenix, Juggernaut/Cain Marko, Gambit/Remy LeBeau, Glob Herman/Herman Gardner, Iceman/Bobby Drake, Jubilee/Jubilation Lee, Katherine “Kitty” Anne Pryde, [Kestrel/John Wraith], Lady Deathstrike/Yuriko Oyama, Leech, Magneto/Erik Magnus Lehnsherr, Mastermind/Jason (Wyngarde), Multiple Man/James Arthur Madrox, Mystique/Raven Darkholme, Nightcrawler/Kurt Wagner, Phat/William Robert “Billy-Bob” Reilly, Professor Charles Xavier, Psylocke/Elizabeth “Betsy” Braddock, Pyro/St. John Allerdyce, Quill/Max Jordan, Rogue/(Anna) Marie, Sabretooth/Victor Creed, Sebastian Hiram Shaw, [Silver Fox], Siryn/Theresa Rourke Cassidy, (The) Spike, Storm/Ororo Munroe, Wolverine/Logan X-Men Non-Mutants: Drake Family (Steven, Madeline, Ronny), Grey Family (Dr. John, Elaine), Henry Peter Gyrich, Robert Edward Kelly, Dr. Moira Kinross MacTaggert, Dr. Kavita Rao, William Stryker, Bolivar Trask, Warren Worthington II
New Line Cinema
Vampires: Blade, Deacon Frost, Dracula/Vlad Tepes Non-Vampires: Hannibal King, Abraham Whistler [UPDATE: Since the time of writing this, The Blade rights have been transferred back into Marvel's hands.]
Sony Pictures
Ghost Rider: Ghost Rider/Johnny Blaze, Blackheart/Legion, Phantom Rider/Carter Slade, Abigor, Gressil, Mephistopheles, Wallow, Barton Blaze, Roxanne Simpson Spider-Man: Spider-Man/Peter Parker, Doctor Octopus/Otto Octavius, Green Goblin/Norman Osborn, (New) Green Goblin/Harry Osborn, [The Lizard]/Dr. Curt Connors, Sandman/Flint Marko, Venom/Eddie Brock Jr., Betty Brant, Dennis Carradine (Buglar), J. Jonah Jameson, Ben Parker, May Parker, John Jameson, Joseph “Robbie” Robertson, Gwen Stacy, Mendel Stromm, Flash Thompson
Lionsgate Entertainment
Punisher: The Punisher/Frank Castle, Jigsaw/Billy Russoti, Microchip/Linus Liberman, Joan the Mouse, Maginty, Mr. Bumpo, Spacker Dave, The Russian, Maria Elizabeth Castle, Detective Martin Soap [UPDATE: Since the time of writing this, The Punisher rights have been transferred back into Marvel's hands.]
Thanks. I wonder why/how the Maximoff siblings are co-owned? Interesting how there isn't a definitive line.
And how do they determine the Skrulls are FF grouped, but Black Panther & Namor aren't.
M
I believe things like that were itemized and negotiated at the time that deals were made. And there may be some strategy (or legality) to the fact that, even though we associate Namor with the FF, they did not originally appear in that publication. Namor first appeared in the Marvel Universe in FF, but the character first appeared in print decades before. Black Panther first appeared in the FF, but it may be partly because he then became a feature in his own title that Marvel decided to sell the Black Panther rights separately from the FF IPs. Whereas the Skrulls are so associated with FF, that it likely made more sense to have them be part of the FF deal with Sony, in the same way that you sell Sandman and Doctor Octopus along with Spider-Man.
That is, at least, my amateur understanding of how that works.
And @Peter. Wow - that was an eye-popping article. Seems he and I both agree that casting Johnny Storm was an intriguing idea. There are other serious issues with the casting that I have. But, after reading through the column twice, I'm still wondering why he never answered the question everyone here and abroad has been asking.
Why did FOX stop short of making Sue Storm black too? Or - why is Reed not the black guy instead of the cliche' hothead womanizer Johnny? Could it have something to do with Sue and Reed's relationship that stopped them? It just seems as an unneeded and confusing plot point for a franchise that's historically struggled.
Anyone who dislikes FOX's Johnny Storm casting is an ignorant racist who hates minorities and I intend to shame everyone who disagrees with me. Just get over it!!!!!!
Seems like all this author was about was being pumped that Michael B. Jordan will be playing the Human Token Torch, regurgitating the same click-bait BleedingCool had already done, and explaining how the Ultimate line messed up when they made everyone white. Now it's FOX's duty to fix it. Sooner or later, people will realize that randomly changing character ethnicity for whatever random reason is a lazy way of adding racial diversity to comics. Marvel and DC should invest more in their existing minority characters and make them into household names.
The question that FOX's rabid defenders have yet to answer is "wouldn't it have been easier to just cast a black actress as Sue?" And honestly, why do you think this wasn't done? Do you think it was to improve the story or is it possible that other motives were behind the decision? I'm pretty sure of the reason and that..... that....
and... I'm bored.
How about we pick this back up when they announce a female Dr. Doom and you can start calling any dissenters misogynist nostalgia fan-boys? Then later, we can pick apart the trailer when it turns out to be ... meh.
Thanks. I wonder why/how the Maximoff siblings are co-owned? Interesting how there isn't a definitive line.
And how do they determine the Skrulls are FF grouped, but Black Panther & Namor aren't.
M
Here's they way I've read it. Fox owns the film and TV (non-animation) rights to all the Marvel characters deemed to be mutants (Cable, X-Men, X-Force, etc). Marvel retains the movie and TV (non-animation) rights to the Avengers characters. And yet, some of The Avengers are mutants. It’s tricky business. It’s possible that through some contractual loophole Marvel Studios would be allowed to use Quicksilver and The Scarlet Witch as long as no mention is made of their father (Magneto) and their mutant status or their code-names and just calls them Wanda and Pietro.
To be fair, there have been plenty of characters of color that go to white actors. Look at all the white guys that have played Jesus.
Most don't understand that most "non-white" characters were created in order to be exactly that: non-white. Black Panther absolutely was created to be a prince of an African tribe. Luke Cage absolutely was created to be from the the Harlem ghetto. Vibe was absolutely created to be a breakdancing Latino. Their ethnicity is part of their character. I'd be willing to bet my collection that there was NO thought about what ethnicity Johnny Storm should be. They just were. Default setting.
And really, in a world of pliable and invisible and rocky and fire making bodies, if those people can't suspend disbelief and just focus on personality and characterization, it's really their own hangups they have to deal with:
"Because when a film is well made, and the story is compelling, willing suspension of disbelief can actually influence racial perceptions. The problem with many people is that they want to hold on to their racial perceptions, because the world stops making sense if they let go. Holding on makes them comfortable. This comfort does not make them racist, but it does mean that they can be engaging in an aspect of racism, even if they don’t realize it. It is similar thinking that makes people assume that a Black adult with a White child can’t possibly be their parent, or that they must be adopted."
I'd be willing to bet my collection that there was NO thought about what ethnicity Johnny Storm should be. They just were. Default setting.
I'm betting since the story included Sue and Johnny being siblings (and Sue a love-interest for Reed), that the expectation was they should both be the same color. If the colorist had used such a varied hue that matched the casting of next year's FOX FF film, someone in editorial would've asked "why?"
If the colorist of the Ultimate universe FF in 2004 had colored the skin tones of Johnny and Sue to such varying shades, I'm betting the editor, as well as all of the readers, would be wondering why. Color changes are easily discerned and it is simple deduction to conclude that siblings are often of similar hues. Not always, but often. And when they aren't, people are intrigued and seek the reason as to why.
Sure, it can happen. When there is some biracial history in one or both parents. But, when it does, it makes the news. Why? Because it is an anomaly.
So, why does it make more sense for the siblings to be different colors instead of the same color? It doesn't. So why did FOX do it? Publicity or color-blindness? Nepotism or half-assed thinking?
Just because blaxploitation "expert" BassAzzMofo claims that noticing this is "engaging in an aspect of racism" without realizing it doesn't make it official. This is the guy that would prefer Jean Claude Van Damme to play Luke Cage (Power Man) over many black actors, so how can I argue with him? And yet, to quote David Walker of BadAssMofo "...Kiev is burning. Parts of Venezuela are burning. Don’t we have more important things to think about than if a Black actor plays a White character?"
I think I do, so come on back here and get in the last word. I insist.
I think they should cast a handicapped Asian midget transgender as the Human Torch. Would check off a lot of boxes for them.
. . . But it doesn't appeal to an actual ticket buying group of people of any size.
Look, I know that boring market logic is always less fun than sarcasm and snark, but real talk: This is not politics. This is not checking boxes. Because there is no bottom line gain to checking boxes. This movie is not being made by some sort of ideological NGO. Does the name Fox really come to mind when we think about corporations who look to put the politics of inclusion ahead of profit motive?
This is selling tickets. This is not leaving money on the table when it comes to selling your movie in 2015. This is not some act of twisting in a knot to find a lot of diversity for the sake of diversity. This is an attempt to diversify an ensemble cast to spread out the hooks and awareness of a movie to sell to different kinds of audiences that exist and can be marketed to. It's a 2015 tentpole movie. So they are trying to make it a 2015 tentpole movie, and for that to happen, a lot of things about a 1963 comic book are going to change.
That's not 2014 politics. That's 2014 showbusiness.
Calling it now: Terrible. Everything they're doing is at best misguided.
I'm surprised they don't just come to you with their ideas before making the movie in the first place so they can get the call before spending a dime.
Yeah, I deserve that. I had typed out several paragraphs, but frustration and sleepiness led me to condense it juuuuuuust a little.
I just don't buy the "We cast an actor who was right for the role, and who just happens to be black" explanation any more. For one, I've never seen a superhero movie in which that was done with any ethnicity but black (the Alba-debate notwithstanding). Second, I'm with Hashim Hathaway in that why not make Sue black too? By making siblings interracial they're requiring a rewrite of one or both characters on some level, and no matter how they slice that, it's going to end up awkward, or demeaning, or both. It's lose-lose.
It's disingenuous by this point. They saw Duncan, and Jackson, and Elba, kick ass in their roles, and they want a piece of that free buzz, too. That's the wrong way to handle race relations, and comics frankly already have enough racial representation problems.
I also sense that they're aiming to make this a deconstructionist, post-modern interpretation, with a baby-faced twentysomething as patriarchal Reed, a short, thin dancer as stocky, defensive-endy Ben, and the director from Chronicle. It's being fast-tracked for a one-year turnaround into an already-crowded schedule. And it's all being based on Ultimate FF (which aren't the general public's childhood memories, which no one bought, and the existence of which has to be explained to everyone all the time), where Reed goes all crazy supervillain, Sue marries Ben, Johnny sheds his skin and hates the group, and Doom has cloven hooves.
I'd like to be pleasantly surprised, but unless something big changes, I'm sensing the worst.
. . . But it doesn't appeal to an actual ticket buying group of people of any size.
A poor attempt at humor on my part.
I don't mind that the Human Torch is going to be black. I love Michael B. Jordan and think he's the only good casting choice out of the whole mix. My biggest gripe with the racial angle of this whole thing is keeping Sue white. That's just stupid.
And since I already struck out with one attempt at humor, may as well go down swinging again ... know what I think would be funny? If they decide to go full-blown Barney & James Stinson/"How I Met Your Mother" and play it along the lines of Sue not realizing that they don't have the same parents/one of them's adopted/etc. She'd say something indicating she has no clue about it, and Johnny, Ben and Reed would just be standing there, looking at their feet, occasionally exchanging awkward glances with each other.
Does Fox still own Electra? I know with Daredevil they had so long to make another movie before the rights went back to Marvel but it hasn't been that long since the Electra movie right? Does that mean that they can't have her or does she and DD go hand in hand?
Comments
That's a shame. I was always surprised Ramis didn't have an even stronger career as a writer/director. He had such a great, early run of films.
First, I'm not a FF fan.
Second, I like the notion of an interacting movie universe. I always thought the first movie could have had Tobey MacGuire standing in the crowd & take pictures. No dialogue, no quick-change, etc.
The casting direction has no baring on whether or not I'll see it.
M
Meg has never asked me if any of the comic book movies we see is accurate with the source material. Frankly, she doesn't care. And if she doesn't care, but enjoyed herself enough to buy the Blu-ray & see any sequels, then its a win for me.
M
Would either or both actually be lumped with the FF like the Skrull are?
M
Here's a neat little graphic somebody made up for it:
And here's a little more detailed breakdown from another website:
20th Century Fox
Daredevil: Daredevil/Matt Murdock, Elektra (Natchios), The Kingpin/Wilson Fisk, Bullseye, Jack Murdock, Karen Page, Ben Urich
Elektra: Christine Cord/Tatoo, Typhoid Mary/Marry Alice Walker, Kirigi, Stick, Stone
Fantastic Four: Doctor Doom/Victor von Doom, Human Torch/Johnny Storm, Invisible Woman/Susan Storm, Mr. Fantastic/Dr. Reed Richards, The Thing/Ben Grimm, Nova/Frankie Raye, Alicia Masters, Willie Lumpkin
X-Men Mutants: [Agent Zero/Maverick/David North], Angel/Warren Worthington III, Arclight/Phillippa Sontag, Beast/Dr. Henry Phillip “Hank” McCoy, [Blob/Frederick J. Dukes], [Bolt/Christopher Bradley], Callisto, Colossus/Piotr Nikolaievitch Rasputin, Cyclops/Scott Summers, [Deadpool/Wade Wilson], Emma (Grace) Frost, Jean Grey/Phoenix, Juggernaut/Cain Marko, Gambit/Remy LeBeau, Glob Herman/Herman Gardner, Iceman/Bobby Drake, Jubilee/Jubilation Lee, Katherine “Kitty” Anne Pryde, [Kestrel/John Wraith], Lady Deathstrike/Yuriko Oyama, Leech, Magneto/Erik Magnus Lehnsherr, Mastermind/Jason (Wyngarde), Multiple Man/James Arthur Madrox, Mystique/Raven Darkholme, Nightcrawler/Kurt Wagner, Phat/William Robert “Billy-Bob” Reilly, Professor Charles Xavier, Psylocke/Elizabeth “Betsy” Braddock, Pyro/St. John Allerdyce, Quill/Max Jordan, Rogue/(Anna) Marie, Sabretooth/Victor Creed, Sebastian Hiram Shaw, [Silver Fox], Siryn/Theresa Rourke Cassidy, (The) Spike, Storm/Ororo Munroe, Wolverine/Logan
X-Men Non-Mutants: Drake Family (Steven, Madeline, Ronny), Grey Family (Dr. John, Elaine), Henry Peter Gyrich, Robert Edward Kelly, Dr. Moira Kinross MacTaggert, Dr. Kavita Rao, William Stryker, Bolivar Trask, Warren Worthington II
New Line Cinema
Vampires: Blade, Deacon Frost, Dracula/Vlad Tepes
Non-Vampires: Hannibal King, Abraham Whistler [UPDATE: Since the time of writing this, The Blade rights have been transferred back into Marvel's hands.]
Sony Pictures
Ghost Rider: Ghost Rider/Johnny Blaze, Blackheart/Legion, Phantom Rider/Carter Slade, Abigor, Gressil, Mephistopheles, Wallow, Barton Blaze, Roxanne Simpson
Spider-Man: Spider-Man/Peter Parker, Doctor Octopus/Otto Octavius, Green Goblin/Norman Osborn, (New) Green Goblin/Harry Osborn, [The Lizard]/Dr. Curt Connors, Sandman/Flint Marko, Venom/Eddie Brock Jr., Betty Brant, Dennis Carradine (Buglar), J. Jonah Jameson, Ben Parker, May Parker, John Jameson, Joseph “Robbie” Robertson, Gwen Stacy, Mendel Stromm, Flash Thompson
Lionsgate Entertainment
Punisher: The Punisher/Frank Castle, Jigsaw/Billy Russoti, Microchip/Linus Liberman, Joan the Mouse, Maginty, Mr. Bumpo, Spacker Dave, The Russian, Maria Elizabeth Castle, Detective Martin Soap [UPDATE: Since the time of writing this, The Punisher rights have been transferred back into Marvel's hands.]
And how do they determine the Skrulls are FF grouped, but Black Panther & Namor aren't.
M
That is, at least, my amateur understanding of how that works.
http://sploid.gizmodo.com/russian-teen-sets-himself-on-fire-and-jumps-off-a-build-1529695927
And @Peter. Wow - that was an eye-popping article. Seems he and I both agree that casting Johnny Storm was an intriguing idea. There are other serious issues with the casting that I have. But, after reading through the column twice, I'm still wondering why he never answered the question everyone here and abroad has been asking.
Why did FOX stop short of making Sue Storm black too? Or - why is Reed not the black guy instead of the cliche' hothead womanizer Johnny? Could it have something to do with Sue and Reed's relationship that stopped them? It just seems as an unneeded and confusing plot point for a franchise that's historically struggled.
Shorter version of the cited article: Seems like all this author was about was being pumped that Michael B. Jordan will be playing the Human
TokenTorch, regurgitating the same click-bait BleedingCool had already done, and explaining how the Ultimate line messed up when they made everyone white. Now it's FOX's duty to fix it. Sooner or later, people will realize that randomly changing character ethnicity for whatever random reason is a lazy way of adding racial diversity to comics. Marvel and DC should invest more in their existing minority characters and make them into household names.The question that FOX's rabid defenders have yet to answer is "wouldn't it have been easier to just cast a black actress as Sue?" And honestly, why do you think this wasn't done? Do you think it was to improve the story or is it possible that other motives were behind the decision? I'm pretty sure of the reason and that..... that....
and... I'm bored.
How about we pick this back up when they announce a female Dr. Doom and you can start calling any dissenters misogynist nostalgia fan-boys? Then later, we can pick apart the trailer when it turns out to be ... meh.
I love you guys.
Luke Cage
Also some good info here: http://www.newsarama.com/17909-5-ways-quicksilver-can-appear-in-both-avengers-2-and-x-men.html
And really, in a world of pliable and invisible and rocky and fire making bodies, if those people can't suspend disbelief and just focus on personality and characterization, it's really their own hangups they have to deal with:
"Because when a film is well made, and the story is compelling, willing suspension of disbelief can actually influence racial perceptions. The problem with many people is that they want to hold on to their racial perceptions, because the world stops making sense if they let go. Holding on makes them comfortable. This comfort does not make them racist, but it does mean that they can be engaging in an aspect of racism, even if they don’t realize it. It is similar thinking that makes people assume that a Black adult with a White child can’t possibly be their parent, or that they must be adopted."
From: http://www.badazzmofo.com/2014/02/20/it-is-possible-to-see-beyond-race-if-only-for-96-minutes/
If the colorist of the Ultimate universe FF in 2004 had colored the skin tones of Johnny and Sue to such varying shades, I'm betting the editor, as well as all of the readers, would be wondering why. Color changes are easily discerned and it is simple deduction to conclude that siblings are often of similar hues. Not always, but often. And when they aren't, people are intrigued and seek the reason as to why.
Sure, it can happen. When there is some biracial history in one or both parents. But, when it does, it makes the news. Why? Because it is an anomaly.
So, why does it make more sense for the siblings to be different colors instead of the same color? It doesn't. So why did FOX do it? Publicity or color-blindness? Nepotism or half-assed thinking?
Just because blaxploitation "expert" BassAzzMofo claims that noticing this is "engaging in an aspect of racism" without realizing it doesn't make it official. This is the guy that would prefer Jean Claude Van Damme to play Luke Cage (Power Man) over many black actors, so how can I argue with him? And yet, to quote David Walker of BadAssMofo "...Kiev is burning. Parts of Venezuela are burning. Don’t we have more important things to think about than if a Black actor plays a White character?"
I think I do, so come on back here and get in the last word. I insist.
Look, I know that boring market logic is always less fun than sarcasm and snark, but real talk: This is not politics. This is not checking boxes. Because there is no bottom line gain to checking boxes. This movie is not being made by some sort of ideological NGO. Does the name Fox really come to mind when we think about corporations who look to put the politics of inclusion ahead of profit motive?
This is selling tickets. This is not leaving money on the table when it comes to selling your movie in 2015. This is not some act of twisting in a knot to find a lot of diversity for the sake of diversity. This is an attempt to diversify an ensemble cast to spread out the hooks and awareness of a movie to sell to different kinds of audiences that exist and can be marketed to. It's a 2015 tentpole movie. So they are trying to make it a 2015 tentpole movie, and for that to happen, a lot of things about a 1963 comic book are going to change.
That's not 2014 politics. That's 2014 showbusiness.
I just don't buy the "We cast an actor who was right for the role, and who just happens to be black" explanation any more. For one, I've never seen a superhero movie in which that was done with any ethnicity but black (the Alba-debate notwithstanding). Second, I'm with Hashim Hathaway in that why not make Sue black too? By making siblings interracial they're requiring a rewrite of one or both characters on some level, and no matter how they slice that, it's going to end up awkward, or demeaning, or both. It's lose-lose.
It's disingenuous by this point. They saw Duncan, and Jackson, and Elba, kick ass in their roles, and they want a piece of that free buzz, too. That's the wrong way to handle race relations, and comics frankly already have enough racial representation problems.
I also sense that they're aiming to make this a deconstructionist, post-modern interpretation, with a baby-faced twentysomething as patriarchal Reed, a short, thin dancer as stocky, defensive-endy Ben, and the director from Chronicle. It's being fast-tracked for a one-year turnaround into an already-crowded schedule. And it's all being based on Ultimate FF (which aren't the general public's childhood memories, which no one bought, and the existence of which has to be explained to everyone all the time), where Reed goes all crazy supervillain, Sue marries Ben, Johnny sheds his skin and hates the group, and Doom has cloven hooves.
I'd like to be pleasantly surprised, but unless something big changes, I'm sensing the worst.
I don't mind that the Human Torch is going to be black. I love Michael B. Jordan and think he's the only good casting choice out of the whole mix. My biggest gripe with the racial angle of this whole thing is keeping Sue white. That's just stupid.