I just don't know if it would work for Marvel - they've made a cottage-industry of the stance that their characters are "real" as is their universe - unlike DC's which is able to undergo major reboots from time to time (Crisis, Zero Hour, etc). When they need to go outside the status quo, you get New Universe or Ultimate, both of which were very good (your mileage may vary).
Think about it. It COULD be awesome. Instead of having 20 X-Men or Avengers titles, you'd probably have around 5 each. Then you get titles like Luke Cage, Dr. Strange, or something crazy like a Spider-Man team or Morlock team, a Rocket Raccoon and Groot and Cosmo team up. Or make a magical team or a God Squad or whatever. You could also bring back things like Dr. Voodoo or Alpha Flight.
Sure, some of those titles wouldn't pan out and get cancelled after six issues, but at least they'd get a shot.
I think the biggest problems is Marvel doesn't have a number. I suppose they could do 616, but that's a lot of comics.
Marvel already did it. It was called the "ULTIMATE" Universe. And apparently it has worked out fairly well for them. But I don't want them to do it again.
I always felt like a lot of people LIKED DC's New-52. Not from this board, which seems to hate it, but in general as sales are up. I don't understand why it couldn't work for Marvel or why people wouldn't give it a chance. What would be so different between the two?
Yes, there is the Ultimates, but I never liked it. My biggest problem with the Ultimates was that it was just rehashes and retellings of old 616 stories.
Yes, there is the Ultimates, but I never liked it. My biggest problem with the Ultimates was that it was just rehashes and retellings of old 616 stories.
Don't kid yourself. The New 52 is rehashing and retelling much of the DC universe as well. Not that that isn't entertaining.
I don't hate the New 52. But I'm not purchasing much more than I did before the relaunch, so I guess I don't like it more than the "old" DCU either.
Don't kid yourself. The New 52 is rehashing and retelling much of the DC universe as well. Not that that isn't entertaining.
I don't hate the New 52. But I'm not purchasing much more than I did before the relaunch, so I guess I don't like it more than the "old" DCU either.
Ah, OK. I guess that's where my lack of DC knowledge and reading comes in handy. That and the fact that I read the more eccentric titles instead of Batman, Superman and GL.
Are the people who think DC will do a re-hash the same who are pissed that Martian Manhunter and Green Arrow haven't joined the Justice League? Just those 2 instances are diversions from the old.
I hate everything about the new 52. I've said it for years, if you want to get rich sell erasers to DC Comics. I see a lot of the new ideas are being cancelled. Great. Now that you've forced this upon us, and it failed can we have our old heroes back please? Can we have heroes who remember each other? Can I have my JSA back, please? But, do get Alan Scott back into his old costume, that last one, honestly, what the hell were you folks thinking?
I agree with this. I am not really a DC guy, but it just feels wrong. I have only been in comics for about 5 years and have been trying to immerse myself in DC history (the Crisis and what not). All those stories don't seem worth it. I just feel more lost then ever. If it wasn't for Batman, Nightwing, and their friends, I would be totally out. MAKE MINE MARVEL
I just hate hate hate 95% of the new costumes and the silly radical de-aged character designs. I hate the absured continiuity issues and lack of attempt to make it actually work. I'm heartbroken over Supermans transformation from Super-man to Super-liberal. Go all the way or dont bother IMO. DC didnt need this Gimick (which it clearly is at this point). You have the worlds greatest Heroes. The most popular and beloved characters. Just put your efforts into make good freaking comics!!! DC jumped the shark with "One Year Later". Theyve been a disjointed mess ever since IMO.
DC should've gone all the way. The selective reboot kinda gives them a way out, still, though it doesn't appear as if they're gonna need one, at this point...
DC should've gone all the way. The selective reboot kinda gives them a way out, still, though it doesn't appear as if they're gonna need one, at this point...
it was a hedging of bets, and also allowed them to keep the continuity of the two thriving/successful franchises (Batman & Green Lantern) while doing a harder reboot of the rest of the universe.
Think about it. It COULD be awesome. Instead of having 20 X-Men or Avengers titles, you'd probably have around 5 each. Then you get titles like Luke Cage, Dr. Strange, or something crazy like a Spider-Man team or Morlock team, a Rocket Raccoon and Groot and Cosmo team up. Or make a magical team or a God Squad or whatever. You could also bring back things like Dr. Voodoo or Alpha Flight.
Sure, some of those titles wouldn't pan out and get cancelled after six issues, but at least they'd get a shot.
I think the biggest problems is Marvel doesn't have a number. I suppose they could do 616, but that's a lot of comics.
Marvel already did it. It was called the "ULTIMATE" Universe. And apparently it has worked out fairly well for them. But I don't want them to do it again.
I would disagree with the bolded statement to a degree. The creation of the Ultimate Universe isn't really the same as the new 52 since the Ultimate Universe didn't take the place of the 616 Universe like the new 52 relaunch did with the DC Universe.
DC should've gone all the way. The selective reboot kinda gives them a way out, still, though it doesn't appear as if they're gonna need one, at this point...
it was a hedging of bets, and also allowed them to keep the continuity of the two thriving/successful franchises (Batman & Green Lantern) while doing a harder reboot of the rest of the universe.
But why do it? It just makes a mess in the long run to keep parts of it 'old', with the rest practically new. That was how the first crisis reboot eventually got fucked up...
In the beginning I thought I was enjoying the DCnU but the further its gone along the more im realising thats not the case. The only books I still properly enjoy are Batman, Green Lantern and Aquaman, all 3 which barely anything changed (less so for Aquaman but I would say hes on track from where we left him in Brightest Day.) Maybe Justice League gets a pass but im not entirely sold yet.
Superman especially annoys me. Gone is the character that everyone looked up to and would always say the right thing, I loved that about his character. Now we just have a mopey guy in crappy looking armour.
I really wanted to embrace this new universe and not cling to the past but it doesnt look like its worked out that way.
Yeah, I'm having a tough time with the new Superman personality, I have to say. I assume it will drift back to the essential character over time. Plus that dumb collar seems to make artists draw his neck too long.
Superman especially annoys me. Gone is the character that everyone looked up to and would always say the right thing, I loved that about his character. Now we just have a mopey guy in crappy looking armour.
I just wanted to highlight this because it is so perfect!
I would disagree with the bolded statement to a degree. The creation of the Ultimate Universe isn't really the same as the new 52 since the Ultimate Universe didn't take the place of the 616 Universe like the new 52 relaunch did with the DC Universe.
Semantics. My point was that Marvel has already taken the same approach as the "New52" with the ultimate line. They updated that characters and were able to give them a fresh start without being held back by decades of continuity. Cherry pick what worked and wipe away the extraneous garbage.
When I think about it, it might have been a smarter approach. Give the "new" fans something of their own to latch onto, and keep the old curmudgeons happy by holding onto the old line (that would be me).
I would disagree with the bolded statement to a degree. The creation of the Ultimate Universe isn't really the same as the new 52 since the Ultimate Universe didn't take the place of the 616 Universe like the new 52 relaunch did with the DC Universe.
Semantics. My point was that Marvel has already taken the same approach as the "New52" with the ultimate line. They updated that characters and were able to give them a fresh start without being held back by decades of continuity. Cherry pick what worked and wipe away the extraneous garbage.
When I think about it, it might have been a smarter approach. Give the "new" fans something of their own to latch onto, and keep the old curmudgeons happy by holding onto the old line (that would be me).
Double the effort and the production for a (possible) marginal increase in customers? Doesn't make much sense to me.
There's enough diminishing returns as it is. Further dividing the audience between the "new" fans and the "old" fans seems like very bad business. You're gonna end up with twice as many books that sell half as well, and then they'll all get cancelled.
There aren't enough of us curmudgeons left to sustain the industry by ourselves. Especially not since we have come to expect the current level of quality and production values.
I cant really comment on if it made good business sense or not to have the Marvel reboot as just another universe instead of the entire thing but I certainly preferred it.
The Ultimate universe has produced some really great stories over the years, Ultimate Spider-Man being one of my favourite characters they did but I wouldn't have wanted to trade all the history from the 616 universe for a new one.
DC's way may get more readers in the short term but I do wonder how long those new readers will stick to buying comics once the initial excitement wears off. Then you are back to the core readers and if they're like me, they have probably dropped quite a few books after realising that they didn't like a lot of the changes. Though of course this isnt anything new and we can compare it to after Crisis but I think the changes this time have been a lot more severe, enough for me to drop characters I love such as Superman or the Teen Titans.
I know I'm only getting half the conversation by skimming this thread but I picked up Green Arrow and wasn't really impressed but I have since started reading some of the Grell run (so reverse order to a lot of you guys) and find that impressive.
I don't think the mismatch in all the comics between what went before and what is now is really helping DC with the longterm DC faithful. When you have impressive runs of issues from the past you are going to feel erked when things are changed but DC did this to try and reinvigorate their universe, and it has. I mean, I've been trying to read Batman for years and haven't been able to find a suitable starting point but when the reboot happened I jumped on nearly every title of Batman. I've only stayed with one title and that is 'Batman' and I think we can all agree that the reboot has worked in their favour. Probably what is causing a lot of problems is the fact that we still have no idea what is still in an out of continuity.
I'll liken this entire situation to Grant Morrison on X-Men. I didn't like the uniform change at first and I didn't like a lot of the story elements but overtime that changed and I think that it is now a very important part of X-Men continuity. We don't like change but when we see change done well we'll accept it. The only problem I have with Morrison's run is that people after it retconned some really good things out of it.
Here is a question though, would you have perferred a straight out reboot or the soft reboot that we got?
Sorry if I tangented from the topic and previous comments
I cant really comment on if it made good business sense or not to have the Marvel reboot as just another universe instead of the entire thing but I certainly preferred it.
That worked ten years ago, but I doubt it would have worked as well for DC now.
But you know what's funny? I actually like new Supergirl and Superboy. Weird, huh?
Nothing weird about that at all! :) I think one of the successes of the New52 is that for all the "failures" that actually make the press we've gotten some truly EXCELLENT books - among the best I've ever read in comics:
Wonder Woman - has become top of the stack for me. I've always appreciated Wondy for what she was...a hot brunette in a corset and undies...but never really read her book that much. I frickin *LOVE* this take on her. I love the way the Gods are involved. I love HOW they're involved. I love the artwork. I'm buying Wonder Woman...and for a change it's for the articles! :)
Demon Knights - I go on about this pretty much every other post, but this is one of the best books out there right now. I never thought I'd say that about a book with Etrigan and Vandal Savage in it.
Supergirl - I may be in the minority, but I was never a huge fan of the way Kara was portrayed in the 00s. Nothing against Igle and Gates...the stories were "okay" but there was never anything about them that wowed me. And that shouldn't happen for a character I love as much as Kara. Wham! This book is nailing it. We often get so focused on the "girl" part we forget she's an alien, and this book really plays up to that. Hell we're in book 8 and she's still not speaking English!
Aquaman - I'm reading Aquaman. I'm excited about reading Aquaman. Does anything more need to be said here? :)
Red Hood and the Outlaws - I love this book because it's slowly giving everyone who got their panties in a twist about Starfire in issue one the FINGER! Just like I said it would! A good story progresses over time, people...why have we forgotten that?
So for every Green Arrow, Batman:TDK, JLI, etc., we're also getting some really GREAT stuff alongside it. Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater...
Wonder Woman - has become top of the stack for me. I've always appreciated Wondy for what she was...a hot brunette in a corset and undies...but never really read her book that much. I frickin *LOVE* this take on her. I love the way the Gods are involved. I love HOW they're involved. I love the artwork. I'm buying Wonder Woman...and for a change it's for the articles! :)
Demon Knights - I go on about this pretty much every other post, but this is one of the best books out there right now. I never thought I'd say that about a book with Etrigan and Vandal Savage in it.
I agree with you. Personally, I think it's the funnest book out there.
Supergirl - I may be in the minority, but I was never a huge fan of the way Kara was portrayed in the 00s. Nothing against Igle and Gates...the stories were "okay" but there was never anything about them that wowed me. And that shouldn't happen for a character I love as much as Kara. Wham! This book is nailing it. We often get so focused on the "girl" part we forget she's an alien, and this book really plays up to that. Hell we're in book 8 and she's still not speaking English!
I had no problem with her in the 00's, but a few issues into this new Supergirl, and I like her better.
Red Hood and the Outlaws - I love this book because it's slowly giving everyone who got their panties in a twist about Starfire in issue one the FINGER! Just like I said it would! A good story progresses over time, people...why have we forgotten that?
I have no idea if this is one of my guilty pleasures, but I like the story and love the art!
Count me in on disliking the new Superman. I just can't get into his books.
But you know what's funny? I actually like new Supergirl and Superboy. Weird, huh?
See, I have actually really enjoyed Superman. I liked the first story arc of Action Comics but I thought the first story of Superman was pretty interesting and now we have some amazingly awesome interactions with Clark and the Daily Planet staff that I just can't put my finger on it but really gives me a nostalgic feeling. I'm also a pretty big fan of the art.
I'm looking forward to getting into Batman, JLA and the the Lantern titles even though I'm not hearing the best of things about most of them. I found it kind of funny they have a Superman and Superboy title when Superman looks like a superboy in it.
Count me in on disliking the new Superman. I just can't get into his books.
But you know what's funny? I actually like new Supergirl and Superboy. Weird, huh?
See, I have actually really enjoyed Superman. I liked the first story arc of Action Comics but I thought the first story of Superman was pretty interesting and now we have some amazingly awesome interactions with Clark and the Daily Planet staff that I just can't put my finger on it but really gives me a nostalgic feeling. I'm also a pretty big fan of the art.
I'm curious, @jaydee74... were you a Superman fan before, or did this turn you on to him?
You can add me to the stats as a fan of the new 52. I was always a marvel zombie and never gave DC a chance until the new 52, now i read Batman (and currently getting all tie ins to night of the owls), Justice league and Aquaman! P.s. but i do understand how old fans can be pissed about the whole thing!
I might be the only one to actually support the new Superman. Yes he wears armor but its more of a convenience rather than a necessity (It can change colors and expand so its easier to conceal under normal clothing). He also wheres it because of heritage. I remember reading Superman before the relaunch and it wasn't doing so hot. While Superman didn't need a relaunch, he did need good writers which he is getting now. I'm not saying this new Superman is perfect but I do think he can be streamlined into the role model we can look up to while staying relevant and exciting to a wider audience.
Answers
And bring back those little editorial boxes that reference various titles or previous issues! That goes for DC too!
Bordering on off topic?
But I don't want them to do it again.
Yes, there is the Ultimates, but I never liked it. My biggest problem with the Ultimates was that it was just rehashes and retellings of old 616 stories.
Not that that isn't entertaining.
I don't hate the New 52. But I'm not purchasing much more than I did before the relaunch, so I guess I don't like it more than the "old" DCU either.
It's all new to me!
I hate the absured continiuity issues and lack of attempt to make it actually work.
I'm heartbroken over Supermans transformation from Super-man to Super-liberal.
Go all the way or dont bother IMO. DC didnt need this Gimick (which it clearly is at this point). You have the worlds greatest Heroes. The most popular and beloved characters. Just put your efforts into make good freaking comics!!!
DC jumped the shark with "One Year Later". Theyve been a disjointed mess ever since IMO.
Superman especially annoys me. Gone is the character that everyone looked up to and would always say the right thing, I loved that about his character. Now we just have a mopey guy in crappy looking armour.
I really wanted to embrace this new universe and not cling to the past but it doesnt look like its worked out that way.
My point was that Marvel has already taken the same approach as the "New52" with the ultimate line. They updated that characters and were able to give them a fresh start without being held back by decades of continuity. Cherry pick what worked and wipe away the extraneous garbage.
When I think about it, it might have been a smarter approach. Give the "new" fans something of their own to latch onto, and keep the old curmudgeons happy by holding onto the old line (that would be me).
There's enough diminishing returns as it is. Further dividing the audience between the "new" fans and the "old" fans seems like very bad business. You're gonna end up with twice as many books that sell half as well, and then they'll all get cancelled.
There aren't enough of us curmudgeons left to sustain the industry by ourselves. Especially not since we have come to expect the current level of quality and production values.
The Ultimate universe has produced some really great stories over the years, Ultimate Spider-Man being one of my favourite characters they did but I wouldn't have wanted to trade all the history from the 616 universe for a new one.
DC's way may get more readers in the short term but I do wonder how long those new readers will stick to buying comics once the initial excitement wears off. Then you are back to the core readers and if they're like me, they have probably dropped quite a few books after realising that they didn't like a lot of the changes. Though of course this isnt anything new and we can compare it to after Crisis but I think the changes this time have been a lot more severe, enough for me to drop characters I love such as Superman or the Teen Titans.
I don't think the mismatch in all the comics between what went before and what is now is really helping DC with the longterm DC faithful. When you have impressive runs of issues from the past you are going to feel erked when things are changed but DC did this to try and reinvigorate their universe, and it has. I mean, I've been trying to read Batman for years and haven't been able to find a suitable starting point but when the reboot happened I jumped on nearly every title of Batman. I've only stayed with one title and that is 'Batman' and I think we can all agree that the reboot has worked in their favour. Probably what is causing a lot of problems is the fact that we still have no idea what is still in an out of continuity.
I'll liken this entire situation to Grant Morrison on X-Men. I didn't like the uniform change at first and I didn't like a lot of the story elements but overtime that changed and I think that it is now a very important part of X-Men continuity. We don't like change but when we see change done well we'll accept it. The only problem I have with Morrison's run is that people after it retconned some really good things out of it.
Here is a question though, would you have perferred a straight out reboot or the soft reboot that we got?
Sorry if I tangented from the topic and previous comments
But you know what's funny? I actually like new Supergirl and Superboy. Weird, huh?
Wonder Woman - has become top of the stack for me. I've always appreciated Wondy for what she was...a hot brunette in a corset and undies...but never really read her book that much. I frickin *LOVE* this take on her. I love the way the Gods are involved. I love HOW they're involved. I love the artwork. I'm buying Wonder Woman...and for a change it's for the articles! :)
Demon Knights - I go on about this pretty much every other post, but this is one of the best books out there right now. I never thought I'd say that about a book with Etrigan and Vandal Savage in it.
Supergirl - I may be in the minority, but I was never a huge fan of the way Kara was portrayed in the 00s. Nothing against Igle and Gates...the stories were "okay" but there was never anything about them that wowed me. And that shouldn't happen for a character I love as much as Kara. Wham! This book is nailing it. We often get so focused on the "girl" part we forget she's an alien, and this book really plays up to that. Hell we're in book 8 and she's still not speaking English!
Aquaman - I'm reading Aquaman. I'm excited about reading Aquaman. Does anything more need to be said here? :)
Red Hood and the Outlaws - I love this book because it's slowly giving everyone who got their panties in a twist about Starfire in issue one the FINGER! Just like I said it would! A good story progresses over time, people...why have we forgotten that?
So for every Green Arrow, Batman:TDK, JLI, etc., we're also getting some really GREAT stuff alongside it. Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater...
I have no idea if this is one of my guilty pleasures, but I like the story and love the art!
P.s. but i do understand how old fans can be pissed about the whole thing!