DC's new 52 - A success or a predictable, total disaster?

JSA4me

I hate everything about the new 52. I've said it for years, if you want to get rich sell erasers to DC Comics. I see a lot of the new ideas are being cancelled. Great. Now that you've forced this upon us, and it failed can we have our old heroes back please? Can we have heroes who remember each other? Can I have my JSA back, please? But, do get Alan Scott back into his old costume, that last one, honestly, what the hell were you folks thinking?

WetRats

Anecdotal evidence from at least one store would indicate that it is far from a disaster.

comicsbeat.com/2012/03/29/the-new-52s-seven-month-adjustment-a-retailer-snapshot/

Miraclemet

Based on where DC was in total (as the definite #2 publisher consistently behind Marvel), I think they would consider the New 52 to be a success considering a) it resulted in increased sales, that even as they level off are higher than they were before Flashpoint and b)it has definitely increased the DC chatter/interest online.

tazmaniak

For me, it was a success.I used to read a lot of DC, but by the time of the relaunch I was only reading/interested in Secret Six.While I hate that my favorite series is gone, I'm now reading 16 DC books.I really hope they don't go back to the previous continuity.

David_D

It's not for me to say at the macro level whether this is a success or not. I guess it depends on how you define it, and what you believe is possible.

But I can say they have succeeded with me. My DC reading had dropped to nearly zero. And now I am reading six of their books every month (and a seventh in trade, as I was before). Now six may not be a lot of books, but it is a lot more than I was reading before. And with Batman Inc. returning, and some new ones on the way that I will try and potentially stick with, it may soon be more. So I would call that a success.

Also, the fact that I would even get a bundle (thanks, in part, to the DCBS discount, but still) of a wave of new #1 issues and given them all a chance is a change from before. So even in raising my expectations that these might be titles I will enjoy means they are succeeding with me.

Of course other readers' experiences will vary, but personally I feel that I gained more than I lost.

JSA4me

You're all wrong. The correct answer is...it's a disaster. Drastic change for the sake of drastic change and renumbering comics with a #1 issue will always draw in new customers, after all there's a sucker born every minute. But, heroes cannot exist with no past, no context, no history. They have a character they are calling Green Arrow, but this is clearly not Green Arrow. If you want a new comic, write one, with a new character. This Green Arrow is an attempt to show a Smallville type Green Arrow, a corporate CEO, a guy who relies on a team of hi-tech geeks guiding him by an earpiece down dark alleys and telling him which arrow to use. The one with the goatee could do it all by himself. The old Ollie was a Liberal, who chased women, and whose favorite food was chili. He was often the voice of conscience in the JLA, or when teamed up with Batman or Green Lantern. I want him back. The hell with this version.

David_D

Oh good. We found a question about subjective things like entertainment and art that has a clear right answer! ;)

JSA4me

A Superman who has to wear body armor? S-U-P-E-R-M-A-N has to wear body armor?

WetRats

You're all wrong.

Good to know. Thanks for pointing that out.

JSA4me

Well, not being born earlier today, like most DC heroes and their new fans, I can remember Craig Kilborn.

David_D

Hey JSA4me--

Why ask a question if there is only one answer you will accept? Most people ask a question because they actually are interested in the answers. And in points of view that may be different than their own. If you are not interested in listening, then why ask the question?

LibraryBoy

Love it or hate it, you're talking about it. DC wins.

Torchsong

I'd say it's a qualified success. There are things about it I didn't like (like replacing Steph as Batgirl with Babs), but there are more things they're doing that I do.

- I give a shit about Aquaman and Wonder Woman again. Two absolutely great books they're knocking out of the park.
- My favorite book stars two characters I have NEVER cared about - The Demon and Vandal Savage. Demon Knights, panel for panel, kicks the ass of damn near any book out there.
- Day and Date Digital - okay, they got me. I'm reading the books I really like (like Demon Knights) on the iPad then picking up the trade. Legion of Super-Heroes is the same way.

Here's the thing about the old stories and 70 years of continuity - it's still out there. It still wants you to read and enjoy it. What Green Arrow is now in NO WAY diminishes what Mike Grell's run on the title was for me. What they're doing to Captain Marvel (I ain' callin him Shazam!) may border on the obscene, but I have my Ordway run and my showcase volumes to keep me happy.

Are books going to fail along the way? Sure they are. Some already have, and a recent missive from Liefeld pretty much is begging people to buy the #7 issues of his titles. I'm sure Resurrection Man (another title I love) is, if not on its last legs, its certainly wobbling. But I'm getting World's Finest with Power Girl and the Huntress...which as any regular JSA/Infinity Inc. reader will remember was one of the THE great team-ups of the 80s.

There was a period last year where I resolved to stop buying single issues from the Big Two. Neither were delivering anything I wanted. Even characters I loved like Supergirl were bland and boring (can't say that about her title now!). DC called my bluff and has delivered books that, for the first time in a long time, I'm genuinely excited to read each month.

JSA4me

Lighten up. It's called humor. And my points not only reflect my opinion but they are educational too. Did you know that Green Arrow like chili?

David_D

I do think lightening up is good advice.

You first ;)

WetRats

Well, not being born earlier today, like most DC heroes and their new fans, I can remember Craig Kilborn.

I remember Craig Kilborn, but I have no idea what you're referring to.

WetRats

Lighten up. It's called humor. And my points not only reflect my opinion but they are educational too. Did you know that Green Arrow like chili?

Calling the people who disagree with you "wrong" and "suckers" isn't humor, it's insulting.

JSA4me

Torchsong gets it. To me this revamp was totally unnecessary, and to add insult to injury, it's not even evenly applied. Aquaman is really the same old character and taken seriously. He's got a good creative team behind him. Green Arrow now is just terrible, and an insult not only to Mike Grell, but to Green Arrrow fans. Okay, here's a question for you should fans be rewarded for their loyalty to a character even if the copyright owner wants to make drastic change? Would you accept a Sherlock Holmes who was a lesbian truck driver from New Jersey who was not a detective? Is that still Sherlock Holmes? I would say NO.

JSA4me

If this NEW 52 Green Arrow was introduced, or referred to as Oliver Queen's son, then it would work for me. As is it doesn't. They've broken the character. Spock has to be a Vulcan with pointy ears. Sherlock Holmes has to be a detective in London. Superman doesn't need body armor. Are you folks getting my point yet? Characters are popular for decades for a reason.
No one wants the return of Red Superman and Blue Superman, right?

WetRats

@JSA4me, before Ollie was the liberal, skirt-chasing (OK, fishnet-chasing), conscience of the JLA, he was a millionaire with an arrow cave and an arrowcar, and a kid sidekick, and largely indistinguishable from the Batman of the era. Then he lost everything and his character evolved. In one issue

The new series is starting him fresh and is intended to show the transition from millionaire playboy to crusading liberal over time. Sounds like it could be a good story to me, if they get the right writer.

David_D

Torchsong gets it. To me this revamp was totally unnecessary, and to add insult to injury, it's not even evenly applied. Aquaman is really the same old character and taken seriously. He's got a good creative team behind him. Green Arrow now is just terrible, and an insult not only to Mike Grell, but to Green Arrrow fans. Okay, here's a question for you should fans be rewarded for their loyalty to a character even if the copyright owner wants to make drastic change? Would you accept a Sherlock Holmes who was a lesbian truck driver from New Jersey who was not a detective? Is that still Sherlock Holmes? I would say NO.

But here's the context-- Green Arrow fans were saying the exact same things you are, and making these same complaints ABOUT the Mike Grell era. I am old enough to not only remember Craig Kilborne, but also to remember that the "trick arrow vs. sharp arrow" debate raged in the letter columns of Grell's Green Arrow series for years. That was a drastic change. And one for the better, in my opinion, since I think the Grell era is the best that character has been. At least, for me. But to some of the old time fans of Green Arrow at that time, to take away his boxing glove arrows, and put him in a gritty mature readers title WAS to take away Spock's pointy ears. But, in that case, I personally think it worked out, and Green Arrow got to be relevant to a readership of that time.

Now the latest new version of Green Arrow, to judge by the first two issues, was terrible. But that happens. But he wasn't terrible because he had been one way forever and now changed for the first time. Rather, it was terrible, to me, because the changes this time around weren't good ones. Or, at least, weren't the ones I was interested in.

But these are decades-old funnybook characters. Some are going on a century. Should we complain that Captain America isn't still chasing down Japanese spies? Or that Superman doesn't play pranks on Lois and juggle planets while Jimmy cross-dresses? Things change. Sometimes that change succeeds, often it doesn't. But these characters don't actually belong to any current fan, no matter how vocal or loyal.

WetRats

I think the Grell era is the best that character has been. At least, for me.

For me, it was the Denny O'Neill/Neal Adams Hard-Traveling Heroes version.

However I also loved the Silver-Age throwback version on the Brave & Bold cartoon.

There's room for many great versions of a character if well-written.

JSA4me

Well, not being born earlier today, like most DC heroes and their new fans, I can remember Craig Kilborn.

I remember Craig Kilborn, but I have no idea what you're referring to.

Well, clearly you don't. He had a bit called the 5 questions on his Late, Late Show in which he asked guests an obviously subjective question in which the correct answer was Craig's opinion. It often revealed that guests were lying when they said they had seen the show or watched it regularly because if they did then they'd know the bit and know the correct answer.

mwhitt80

Now the latest new version of Green Arrow, to judge by the first two issues, was terrible. But that happens. But he wasn't terrible because he had been one way forever and now changed for the first time. Rather, it was terrible, to me, because the changes this time around weren't good ones. Or, at least, weren't the ones I was interested in.

David Let's be real here the changes weren't the reason the book was terrible. I believe I will pull a quote from the old forum " I'm not sure anyone will accuse Krul of being a good writer. "

DoctorDoom

I view it as both a success as a whole, but a personal failure.

The numbers don't lie. And they definitely have people talking about them.

But for me, who loves buying tons of comics, it's fallen a bit flat. I may be getting less DC then I have been in the past few years. I'm not even getting Superman!

That being said, I absolutely love the titles I am getting. Who'd have thought I'd ever love a series called "Demon Knights"?

David_D

Now the latest new version of Green Arrow, to judge by the first two issues, was terrible. But that happens. But he wasn't terrible because he had been one way forever and now changed for the first time. Rather, it was terrible, to me, because the changes this time around weren't good ones. Or, at least, weren't the ones I was interested in.

David Let's be real here the changes weren't the reason the book was terrible. I believe I will pull a quote from the old forum " I'm not sure anyone will accuse Krul of being a good writer. "

Could be. I am no fan of Krul, but I also would bet the the concept for the New52 Green Arrow included decisions made above his pay grade. So I don't ONLY blame Krul.

JSA4me

I think the Grell era is the best that character has been. At least, for me.

For me, it was the Denny O'Neill/Neal Adams Hard-Traveling Heroes version.

However I also loved the Silver-Age throwback version on the Brave & Bold cartoon.

There's room for many great versions of a character if well-written.

Amen.

mwhitt80

;) @david_d

Just stirring the pot

David_D

Well, not being born earlier today, like most DC heroes and their new fans, I can remember Craig Kilborn.

I remember Craig Kilborn, but I have no idea what you're referring to.

Well, clearly you don't. He had a bit called the 5 questions on his Late, Late Show in which he asked guests an obviously subjective question in which the correct answer was Craig's opinion. It often revealed that guests were lying when they said they had seen the show or watched it regularly because if they did then they'd know the bit and know the correct answer.

I see. When we're talking to you, we should be pretending to be on the Craig Kilborne show.

You're right-- that should have been obvious.

WetRats

Well, clearly you don't. He had a bit called the 5 questions on his Late, Late Show in which he asked guests an obviously subjective question in which the correct answer was Craig's opinion. It often revealed that guests were lying when they said they had seen the show or watched it regularly because if they did then they'd know the bit and know the correct answer.

Ah yes. Now I remember, from The Daily Show.

Like most of his bits, it was kind of funny once or twice, but was mostly just mean-spirited bullying masquerading as comedy.

BlackUmbrella

All of these characters have been so reshaped and reworked for so many years that I don't concern myself about it any more. They are like rubber bands that get stretched and twisted, but eventually come back to actual shape in the hands of a writer who gets the essence of the character. All this fretting is crazy.

You don't like Green Arrow now? Neither does anyone else. Believe me, they'll fix it. Or try to. They want to sell comics.

I have been reading DC comics for nearly 40 years, so if I wanted to throw a fit over this, I could. When the New 52 hit, economics had already driven me to cancel my pull list and just borrow trades. I was reading nothing new.

That fresh start was all I needed, and I'm totally back to reading many titles and enjoying comics. I'm loving feeling that 1) I'm in on the ground floor with the characters I enjoy and can feel free to just watch what happens without a tone of baggage, but that 2) My deep knowledge of the DC universe isn't useless.

I love it. Way to go DC, and I hope Marvel tries the same thing.