I like the limited format as well. I'm hoping that some lessons have been learned from the AoS season 1 debacle. Things didn't quite seem planned properly for that, but this just feels like they've got the whole thing mapped out and have had time to really work out all the possible plot threads.
I've been a sucker for strong female leads since Aliens, probably before.
I like that it's a limited run season. It is presumable that, like with TNT, USA, & FX, the episodes will all have weight and not a couple of fillers. Also, seeing the origins of SHIELD is interesting to me; specifically if you can follow where HYDRA was slowly becoming intertwined into the organization.
Plus, I am a sucker for strong female leading characters. Since I really started to get into Buffy, I have always liked the idea of women being on equal (or superior in some instances) ground.
M
I am with you on the excitement about filling in the blanks re: the origins of SHIELD, and I think Peggy will fit in nicely in the line of Buffy, Sydney, Veronica, etc.
But I cannot agree on the shorter seasons. I hate the British version (now co-opted by cable, it seems) of thinking less is more. Not to me. I want more episodes, not fewer. 22 is the magic number these days, so if I get any less than that, color me disappointed.
I like that it's a limited run season. It is presumable that, like with TNT, USA, & FX, the episodes will all have weight and not a couple of fillers. Also, seeing the origins of SHIELD is interesting to me; specifically if you can follow where HYDRA was slowly becoming intertwined into the organization.
Plus, I am a sucker for strong female leading characters. Since I really started to get into Buffy, I have always liked the idea of women being on equal (or superior in some instances) ground.
M
I am with you on the excitement about filling in the blanks re: the origins of SHIELD, and I think Peggy will fit in nicely in the line of Buffy, Sydney, Veronica, etc.
But I cannot agree on the shorter seasons. I hate the British version (now co-opted by cable, it seems) of thinking less is more. Not to me. I want more episodes, not fewer. 22 is the magic number these days, so if I get any less than that, color me disappointed.
Besides lacking filler episodes, I like it because its less of a time commitment & enables more short season series.
I like that it's a limited run season. It is presumable that, like with TNT, USA, & FX, the episodes will all have weight and not a couple of fillers. Also, seeing the origins of SHIELD is interesting to me; specifically if you can follow where HYDRA was slowly becoming intertwined into the organization.
Plus, I am a sucker for strong female leading characters. Since I really started to get into Buffy, I have always liked the idea of women being on equal (or superior in some instances) ground.
M
I am with you on the excitement about filling in the blanks re: the origins of SHIELD, and I think Peggy will fit in nicely in the line of Buffy, Sydney, Veronica, etc.
But I cannot agree on the shorter seasons. I hate the British version (now co-opted by cable, it seems) of thinking less is more. Not to me. I want more episodes, not fewer. 22 is the magic number these days, so if I get any less than that, color me disappointed.
Besides lacking filler episodes, I like it because its less of a time commitment & enables more short season series.
M
Seems like that does work out for you, then. But for me, I am looking for a time commitment. If I wanted something shorter, I'd watch a movie. And I've heard the term "filler" episode for years, but I have no idea what people mean when they say it. I mean, the traditional clip show has pretty much gone the way of the dodo, so if I am getting new, original content, I am happy with that. I mean, it's all just filling time, yeah?
I like that it's a limited run season. It is presumable that, like with TNT, USA, & FX, the episodes will all have weight and not a couple of fillers. Also, seeing the origins of SHIELD is interesting to me; specifically if you can follow where HYDRA was slowly becoming intertwined into the organization.
Plus, I am a sucker for strong female leading characters. Since I really started to get into Buffy, I have always liked the idea of women being on equal (or superior in some instances) ground.
M
I am with you on the excitement about filling in the blanks re: the origins of SHIELD, and I think Peggy will fit in nicely in the line of Buffy, Sydney, Veronica, etc.
But I cannot agree on the shorter seasons. I hate the British version (now co-opted by cable, it seems) of thinking less is more. Not to me. I want more episodes, not fewer. 22 is the magic number these days, so if I get any less than that, color me disappointed.
Besides lacking filler episodes, I like it because its less of a time commitment & enables more short season series.
M
Seems like that does work out for you, then. But for me, I am looking for a time commitment. If I wanted something shorter, I'd watch a movie. And I've heard the term "filler" episode for years, but I have no idea what people mean when they say it. I mean, the traditional clip show has pretty much gone the way of the dodo, so if I am getting new, original content, I am happy with that. I mean, it's all just filling time, yeah?
There were so many episodes in Smallville that were filler episodes, it could've been a 6 season series instead of 10.
They are the episodes that advance the season arch very minimally.
I like the limited format as well. I'm hoping that some lessons have been learned from the AoS season 1 debacle.
Debacle?
I saw (and told y'all) where they were going with the season just a few episodes in.
The only real hiccup was having to run a lot of repeats mid-season to get the timing with Winter Soldier correct, and Agent Carter is going to fill that gap this time, so they can (presumably) set up/react to Age of Ultron.
I like the limited format as well. I'm hoping that some lessons have been learned from the AoS season 1 debacle.
Debacle?
I saw (and told y'all) where they were going with the season just a few episodes in.
The only real hiccup was having to run a lot of repeats mid-season to get the timing with Winter Soldier correct, and Agent Carter is going to fill that gap this time, so they can (presumably) set up/react to Age of Ultron.
Hardly seems debacular to me.
Debacle: a great disaster
The problem, at least for me, was the padded out plot. We had to slog through 16 episodes of the show spinning its wheels waiting for Cap2's release so it didn’t spoil Marvel's money maker. They didn’t have any solid storylines of their own, they just followed the movies, and they couldn’t do anything interesting in that setting as that was for the movies to decide. Most of AoS's problems have been explained away by some fans as “All Josh Whedon's shows start slow and need time to get better.” Aside from the fact that this isn’t a Joss Whedon show but actually it's his brother’s, Buffy, Angel, Firefly, at al, each had interesting and fun casts which kept their shows going while finding their feet. This show doesn’t have that kind of cast, nor any chemistry between them, even among the characters that I almost like. They didn’t make me care about any of them in the entire 22 episodes. 16 episodes of filler, and 6 episodes of "meh".
Furthermore, where was this Coulson first season? Is that really him, back from the dead? Where's the Coulson that would threaten to taser Tony Stark and watch Supernanny while he drools on the carpet? They’ve softened all of his coolness off. I suppose May is an alright character, but much like Coulson, the acceptable portion is due to the actor rather than the writing. And the FitzSimmons pair? A joke of a 2-dimensional character split into two 1-dimensional characters. Fitz is in love with Simmons but he’s too scared to say anything so he gets upset with every man who starts talking with her casually. That’s his entire arc for the season. Kill off Fitz and give Simmons something to do, maybe make her into a 2-dimensional character. And don't get me started on Grant Ward. Purposely bland and boring because the creators weren’t brave enough to try and make him a likeable character that fans would hate to learn that he was a bad guy. He’s bland and boring so the fans will go “yay" when it's revealed he's Hydra.
The actual “season arc” was merely the last six episodes without any practical build-up to them resulting in a rushed conclusion that promises change but doesn’t really mean it, it’s all there. All that’s missing is a corny theme song and it could fit right in any mid-90s ABC TV Guide line-up. The show might have worked better had the 16 episodes set before The Winter Soldier been written better and the audience had been made to genuinely care about the characters. Instead, it just felt like a variation of the X-Files or Kolchak until John Garrett entered the picture. Paxton saved the show from being entirely a "debacle." Losing half of your starting audience may work for some properties, but...
My dislike, along with five and a half million other viewers then. If you can better explain why the show lost half of its audience during those 16 episodes then you're invited to do so. I think the number is from 12,000,000 to roughly 6,500,000.
My dislike, along with five and a half million other viewers then. If you can better explain why the show lost half of its audience during those 16 episodes then you're invited to do so. I think the number is from 12,000,000 to roughly 6,500,000.
Pink Lady and Jeff was a debacle.
MAoS clearly did well enough to get renewed.
It just lost the 5.5M viewers who were expecting Avengers; The Series or somesuch.
My dislike, along with five and a half million other viewers then. If you can better explain why the show lost half of its audience during those 16 episodes then you're invited to do so. I think the number is from 12,000,000 to roughly 6,500,000.
Pink Lady and Jeff was a debacle.
MAoS clearly did well enough to get renewed.
It just lost the 5.5M viewers who were expecting Avengers; The Series or somesuch.
6.5M is still a good audience in today's market.
Yes. I'm sure ABC and Marvel both being owned by Disney had NOTHING to do with their renewal. But then again, 6.5 million isn't necessarily a bad number it just puts them well behind NCIS in the same time slot.
I suppose then you would argue that the only possible debacle was that ABC didn't properly market the show to better adjust the expectations of the 5.5 million who bailed during the first half of the season, or are you saying those 5.5 million potential fans were simply wrong because they expected too much?
I say this knowing I threatened to abandon the show repeatedly but continued to watch anyway, and that I'll probably watch this whole next season...
The show is terrible. It was a poorly written, ill-paced, and is shoddily directed. The first 16 episodes had no idea what it wanted to be, which kinda begged the question, Why'd they even bother if they didn't have a vision for the show? And the last arc? It was only good in comparison with what had come before. It may have had a narrative course finally, but the writing and direction are still some of the most wooden, 2-dimensional on TV. It was like this show stepped out of 1995.
Don't even get me started on Ward. Brett Dalton might be the worst actor on TV right now.
You have no right to speak for me either, but if you need to act as though your opinion is superior in order to keep defending this disaster of a show, I suppose two or three people here will agree with you, but I stated my opinion which is not a minority and I explained it, I apologize if the term debacle upset you. When I began this thread last fall, I had high hopes. I'm not an AoS apologist like some fanboys, but I also mentioned that I hoped they learned from the mistakes of the last season so that the 2nd one is improved, and you felt like it was important for you to quibble with my terminology and tell me how I was wrong. You believe that the show's hemorraging of viewers doesn't make it the biggest disaster in recent years of the Marvel Cinematic Universe? I believe you're mistaken. I've presented to the facts to reaffirm my opinion and you've acted like a grammar-Nazi.
You have no right to speak for me either, but if you need to act as though your opinion is superior in order to keep defending this disaster of a show, I suppose two or three people here will agree with you, but I stated my opinion which is not a minority and I explained it, I apologize if the term debacle upset you. When I began this thread last fall, I had high hopes. I'm not an AoS apologist like some fanboys, but I also mentioned that I hoped they learned from the mistakes of the last season so that the 2nd one is improved, and you felt like it was important for you to quibble with my terminology and tell me how I was wrong. You believe that the show's hemorraging of viewers doesn't make it the biggest disaster in recent years of the Marvel Cinematic Universe? I believe you're mistaken. I've presented to the facts to reaffirm my opinion and you've acted like a grammar-Nazi.
Hyperbole much?
Debacle... Disaster... Hemorraging...
By my math, 16.5M-5.5M doesn't place you in the majority.
I'd be hard pressed to come up with a series, of any genre, that didn't have soft spots during the first season. Take that same show and place them within a blockbuster continuity and limit the areas that they can touch and there is absolutely going to be some level of disappointment as people begin to realize that the Avengers are not going to make appearances in the TV show.
As to the biggest disaster in recent years in the Marvel Cinematic Universe. As far as I know, and you tell me if you're aware of something that I'm not. This is the only weekly, sequential, live action, made-for-TV offering that has had Marvel's name on it since Bill Bixby did the sad Hulk walk. Marvel is trying to deliver product in a different way and it will take time to tune it correctly to bring in the kind of viewership that the movies have delivered. Even then, you have to assume some level of attrition from the people that are character or actor driven viewers.
It's not your cuppa, fine. Crowing about what you perceive to be its failure is a pretty sad place to be. It's almost like rooting for it to fail. That negativity is, from my perspective, pretty much what I'd expect from a programming exec dealing with a Whedon show. Establish an expectation and then when it doesn't meet that expectation, abruptly cancel it rather than see how to refine or retool.
You have no right to speak for me either, but if you need to act as though your opinion is superior in order to keep defending this disaster of a show, I suppose two or three people here will agree with you, but I stated my opinion which is not a minority and I explained it, I apologize if the term debacle upset you. When I began this thread last fall, I had high hopes. I'm not an AoS apologist like some fanboys, but I also mentioned that I hoped they learned from the mistakes of the last season so that the 2nd one is improved, and you felt like it was important for you to quibble with my terminology and tell me how I was wrong. You believe that the show's hemorraging of viewers doesn't make it the biggest disaster in recent years of the Marvel Cinematic Universe? I believe you're mistaken. I've presented to the facts to reaffirm my opinion and you've acted like a grammar-Nazi.
"Apologist."
"Fanboy."
"Nazi."
You forgot to throw in a reference to drinking Kool-Aid.
6.5 million stayed vs 5.5 million that left. Of the 6.5 million that remained, a few feel the same. Of the 5.5 million that left, I can only assume it sucked for them too.
How about this? Season one was a stinker. The good news is that it can only get better.
I will say, despite not being a fan of AoS or GotG, I will say I'm glad everything is kept in the same universe & continuity. It was nicely build naturally; which is one of my concerns with DCCU rushing everything.
Marvel is really impressing me with these kinds of decisions. They seem like no-brainers too. And even though they're changing canon with the Vision, among other parts of the published history, this shared universe strategy is perhaps the most impressive thing I've ever seen when it comes to film properties.
And to speak to what @Matt just stated, I am the same way with the comics. Not a reader/fan of every book, but impressed and pleased that they all share the same universe.
I will say, despite not being a fan of AoS or GotG, I will say I'm glad everything is kept in the same universe & continuity. It was nicely build naturally; which is one of my concerns with DCCU rushing everything.
M
I keep going back to Fury's line from the tag scene in Iron Man:
"I am Iron Man". You think you're the only superhero in the world? Mr. Stark, you've become part of a bigger universe. You just don't know it yet.
I will say, despite not being a fan of AoS or GotG, I will say I'm glad everything is kept in the same universe & continuity. It was nicely build naturally; which is one of my concerns with DCCU rushing everything.
M
I keep going back to Fury's line from the tag scene in Iron Man:
"I am Iron Man". You think you're the only superhero in the world? Mr. Stark, you've become part of a bigger universe. You just don't know it yet.
Its great. As much as I like the names of Michael Douglass & Joaquin Phoenix taking roles, I'm always concerned they won't be up for appearing on the TV/Netflix series if needed. Sam Jackson & Ben Kingsley are potentially more exceptions then the norm.
I will say, despite not being a fan of AoS or GotG, I will say I'm glad everything is kept in the same universe & continuity. It was nicely build naturally; which is one of my concerns with DCCU rushing everything.
M
I keep going back to Fury's line from the tag scene in Iron Man:
"I am Iron Man". You think you're the only superhero in the world? Mr. Stark, you've become part of a bigger universe. You just don't know it yet.
Its great. As much as I like the names of Michael Douglass & Joaquin Phoenix taking roles, I'm always concerned they won't be up for appearing on the TV/Netflix series if needed. Sam Jackson & Ben Kingsley are potentially more exceptions then the norm.
M
One of the reasons I prefer the avoidance of big-name actors.
I've said it before, I'm sure I'll say it again: Don't hire stars, make stars.
6.5 million stayed vs 5.5 million that left. Of the 6.5 million that remained, a few feel the same. Of the 5.5 million that left, I can only assume it sucked for them too.
How about this? Season one was a stinker. The good news is that it can only get better.
I'm not really seeing this either -- the season struck me as neither stinker nor debacle. I was entertained, the stories were good if not great, and I liked the characters. The first half of the season ran kind of slow, but I was expecting that anyway. I'm definitely sold on a second season.
I like that it's a limited run season. It is presumable that, like with TNT, USA, & FX, the episodes will all have weight and not a couple of fillers. Also, seeing the origins of SHIELD is interesting to me; specifically if you can follow where HYDRA was slowly becoming intertwined into the organization.
Plus, I am a sucker for strong female leading characters. Since I really started to get into Buffy, I have always liked the idea of women being on equal (or superior in some instances) ground.
M
I am with you on the excitement about filling in the blanks re: the origins of SHIELD, and I think Peggy will fit in nicely in the line of Buffy, Sydney, Veronica, etc.
But I cannot agree on the shorter seasons. I hate the British version (now co-opted by cable, it seems) of thinking less is more. Not to me. I want more episodes, not fewer. 22 is the magic number these days, so if I get any less than that, color me disappointed.
Besides lacking filler episodes, I like it because its less of a time commitment & enables more short season series.
M
Seems like that does work out for you, then. But for me, I am looking for a time commitment. If I wanted something shorter, I'd watch a movie. And I've heard the term "filler" episode for years, but I have no idea what people mean when they say it. I mean, the traditional clip show has pretty much gone the way of the dodo, so if I am getting new, original content, I am happy with that. I mean, it's all just filling time, yeah?
There were so many episodes in Smallville that were filler episodes, it could've been a 6 season series instead of 10.
They are the episodes that advance the season arch very minimally.
M
I didn't watch it past season one, but I have a hard time believing there were 60 clip shows out of 220 episodes!
ETA: I now read what you said about not advancing the season arc. That's a relatively new phenomenon, though, isn't it? The shows of my youth never had a season-long arc; they just had episodes. So I take each episode of the series on its own merits. Was it entertaining? Thought provoking? Interesting? Then it satisfied me. The only episodes I would consider filler would be the aforementioned clip shows. Now some episodes are better than others, but season premieres/finales might be awful and a random standalone might be A-OK. Heck, my favorite all-time episode of LOST is Tricia Tanaka is Dead, which does little to advance the uberplot; same goes for my all time favorite Buffy, The Zeppo.
I say this knowing I threatened to abandon the show repeatedly but continued to watch anyway, and that I'll probably watch this whole next season...
The show is terrible. It was a poorly written, ill-paced, and is shoddily directed. The first 16 episodes had no idea what it wanted to be, which kinda begged the question, Why'd they even bother if they didn't have a vision for the show? And the last arc? It was only good in comparison with what had come before. It may have had a narrative course finally, but the writing and direction are still some of the most wooden, 2-dimensional on TV. It was like this show stepped out of 1995.
Don't even get me started on Ward. Brett Dalton might be the worst actor on TV right now.
Comments
I've been a sucker for strong female leads since Aliens, probably before.
But I cannot agree on the shorter seasons. I hate the British version (now co-opted by cable, it seems) of thinking less is more. Not to me. I want more episodes, not fewer. 22 is the magic number these days, so if I get any less than that, color me disappointed.
M
They are the episodes that advance the season arch very minimally.
M
I saw (and told y'all) where they were going with the season just a few episodes in.
The only real hiccup was having to run a lot of repeats mid-season to get the timing with Winter Soldier correct, and Agent Carter is going to fill that gap this time, so they can (presumably) set up/react to Age of Ultron.
Hardly seems debacular to me.
Yay. Triplett is indeed a regular now.
I was concerned when he didn't appear in the first teaser image.
(Still wish Ward was gone, gone, gone.)
The problem, at least for me, was the padded out plot. We had to slog through 16 episodes of the show spinning its wheels waiting for Cap2's release so it didn’t spoil Marvel's money maker. They didn’t have any solid storylines of their own, they just followed the movies, and they couldn’t do anything interesting in that setting as that was for the movies to decide. Most of AoS's problems have been explained away by some fans as “All Josh Whedon's shows start slow and need time to get better.” Aside from the fact that this isn’t a Joss Whedon show but actually it's his brother’s, Buffy, Angel, Firefly, at al, each had interesting and fun casts which kept their shows going while finding their feet. This show doesn’t have that kind of cast, nor any chemistry between them, even among the characters that I almost like. They didn’t make me care about any of them in the entire 22 episodes. 16 episodes of filler, and 6 episodes of "meh".
Furthermore, where was this Coulson first season? Is that really him, back from the dead? Where's the Coulson that would threaten to taser Tony Stark and watch Supernanny while he drools on the carpet? They’ve softened all of his coolness off. I suppose May is an alright character, but much like Coulson, the acceptable portion is due to the actor rather than the writing. And the FitzSimmons pair? A joke of a 2-dimensional character split into two 1-dimensional characters. Fitz is in love with Simmons but he’s too scared to say anything so he gets upset with every man who starts talking with her casually. That’s his entire arc for the season. Kill off Fitz and give Simmons something to do, maybe make her into a 2-dimensional character. And don't get me started on Grant Ward. Purposely bland and boring because the creators weren’t brave enough to try and make him a likeable character that fans would hate to learn that he was a bad guy. He’s bland and boring so the fans will go “yay" when it's revealed he's Hydra.
The actual “season arc” was merely the last six episodes without any practical build-up to them resulting in a rushed conclusion that promises change but doesn’t really mean it, it’s all there. All that’s missing is a corny theme song and it could fit right in any mid-90s ABC TV Guide line-up. The show might have worked better had the 16 episodes set before The Winter Soldier been written better and the audience had been made to genuinely care about the characters. Instead, it just felt like a variation of the X-Files or Kolchak until John Garrett entered the picture. Paxton saved the show from being entirely a "debacle." Losing half of your starting audience may work for some properties, but...
Second, your dislike does not a debacle make.
Third, just because you didn't see the plot building doesn't mean it wasn't there.
Pink Lady and Jeff was a debacle.
MAoS clearly did well enough to get renewed.
It just lost the 5.5M viewers who were expecting Avengers; The Series or somesuch.
6.5M is still a good audience in today's market.
I suppose then you would argue that the only possible debacle was that ABC didn't properly market the show to better adjust the expectations of the 5.5 million who bailed during the first half of the season, or are you saying those 5.5 million potential fans were simply wrong because they expected too much?
The show is terrible. It was a poorly written, ill-paced, and is shoddily directed. The first 16 episodes had no idea what it wanted to be, which kinda begged the question, Why'd they even bother if they didn't have a vision for the show? And the last arc? It was only good in comparison with what had come before. It may have had a narrative course finally, but the writing and direction are still some of the most wooden, 2-dimensional on TV. It was like this show stepped out of 1995.
Don't even get me started on Ward. Brett Dalton might be the worst actor on TV right now.
I have no more right to speak for the other 5,499,999 than you do.
Debacle... Disaster... Hemorraging...
By my math, 16.5M-5.5M doesn't place you in the majority.
I'd be hard pressed to come up with a series, of any genre, that didn't have soft spots during the first season. Take that same show and place them within a blockbuster continuity and limit the areas that they can touch and there is absolutely going to be some level of disappointment as people begin to realize that the Avengers are not going to make appearances in the TV show.
As to the biggest disaster in recent years in the Marvel Cinematic Universe. As far as I know, and you tell me if you're aware of something that I'm not. This is the only weekly, sequential, live action, made-for-TV offering that has had Marvel's name on it since Bill Bixby did the sad Hulk walk. Marvel is trying to deliver product in a different way and it will take time to tune it correctly to bring in the kind of viewership that the movies have delivered. Even then, you have to assume some level of attrition from the people that are character or actor driven viewers.
It's not your cuppa, fine. Crowing about what you perceive to be its failure is a pretty sad place to be. It's almost like rooting for it to fail. That negativity is, from my perspective, pretty much what I'd expect from a programming exec dealing with a Whedon show. Establish an expectation and then when it doesn't meet that expectation, abruptly cancel it rather than see how to refine or retool.
"Fanboy."
"Nazi."
You forgot to throw in a reference to drinking Kool-Aid.
You're falling down on the job.
How about this? Season one was a stinker. The good news is that it can only get better.
...well actually they had me long before that, but you know what I mean.
Jarvis!
Not J.A.R.V.I.S., Jarvis.
Woohoo!
M
And to speak to what @Matt just stated, I am the same way with the comics. Not a reader/fan of every book, but impressed and pleased that they all share the same universe.
"I am Iron Man". You think you're the only superhero in the world? Mr. Stark, you've become part of a bigger universe. You just don't know it yet.
M
I've said it before, I'm sure I'll say it again: Don't hire stars, make stars.
ETA: I now read what you said about not advancing the season arc. That's a relatively new phenomenon, though, isn't it? The shows of my youth never had a season-long arc; they just had episodes. So I take each episode of the series on its own merits. Was it entertaining? Thought provoking? Interesting? Then it satisfied me. The only episodes I would consider filler would be the aforementioned clip shows. Now some episodes are better than others, but season premieres/finales might be awful and a random standalone might be A-OK. Heck, my favorite all-time episode of LOST is Tricia Tanaka is Dead, which does little to advance the uberplot; same goes for my all time favorite Buffy, The Zeppo.