I just hate seeing new characters get canceled titles soon after they start.
Maybe a Transformers-style mini series?
For some reason the big 2 appear think buyers loathe the words "Limited Series" or "Mini-Series". I for one do not. I happen to prefer those runs a great deal of the time.
I just hate seeing new characters get canceled titles soon after they start.
Maybe a Transformers-style mini series?
For some reason the big 2 appear think buyers loathe the words "Limited Series" or "Mini-Series". I for one do not. I happen to prefer those runs a great deal of the time.
They think so because no one buys them. The limited non-event series is dead. If people know a book is going to have a limited run it encourages them to wait to hear if its any good and wait for the trade... then forget to buy the trade because new stuff is already out.
I think I would have like to seen this character appear in something leading to her solo... an arc in an Avengers title (probably Mighty), then the solo flashes back to the origin. It worked pretty well for Nova... introduced in AvX, then elaborated on.
Do you think Ms. Marvel & new characters should be featured in other books (not necessarily a solo character's book, team book, but maybe a Team up title) to generate interest before he/she gets a solo book? Ultimately, we won't know until Ms. Marvel comes out, but I just hate seeing new characters get canceled titles soon after they start.
Maybe a Transformers-style mini series?
M
I think the opposite will happen in this case. Nu Ms. Marvel will get the axe in 6 - 8 issues and then the character will be shoehorned into the recently relaunched New Warriors line-up... only to have that book axed 6 - 8 issues later.
Nu Ms. Marvel will get the axe in 6 - 8 issues and then the character will be shoehorned into the recently relaunched New Warriors line-up... only to have that book axed 6 - 8 issues later.
They they can all join the new West Coast Young Avengers...
I think they've put the cart before the horse at the very least. Even planning to intro her in the New Warriors or any other title first before promoting her to her own book seems premature. How about introducing new characters and then, if the public demands it, give the character their own book? Seems like that should be standard operating procedure by now. The fact that the same treatment wasn't applied to this book further convinces me that this is more about Marvel earning a diversity badge than selling books.
Do you think Ms. Marvel & new characters should be featured in other books (not necessarily a solo character's book, team book, but maybe a Team up title) to generate interest before he/she gets a solo book? Ultimately, we won't know until Ms. Marvel comes out, but I just hate seeing new characters get canceled titles soon after they start.
Maybe a Transformers-style mini series?
M
I think this would be a good idea. Ultimate Comics Spider-Man recently introduced Ultimate versions of Cloak and Dagger. Bend is made them exciting and interesting and I wouldn't not buy a book of them. He also introduced another character that was interesting.
I wonder if the problem isn't also the fact that most people who are buying from Marvel or DC are looking for established characters. And there may be a more positive response if new characters are introduced in an already established book. If readers want "new" stuff there is always Vertigo, Image, IDW, etc.
Didn't Infinity sell well? And wasn't it a limited series?
Infinity was an event series, a culmination of a year's worth of stories and a launching point for the next year of books. I don't think today's market would be friendly to something like 'Longshot' or even 'Kitty Pride and Wolverine'
Do you think Ms. Marvel & new characters should be featured in other books (not necessarily a solo character's book, team book, but maybe a Team up title) to generate interest before he/she gets a solo book? Ultimately, we won't know until Ms. Marvel comes out, but I just hate seeing new characters get canceled titles soon after they start.
Maybe a Transformers-style mini series?
M
Well they have done some of that for Ms. Marvel, actually. Not a full mini, but the character has been (or will be, not sure if these are out yet) issues of Captain Marvel before her own title launches. And she also has a story in the recent All New Marvel Now anthology that is meant to promote upcoming titles.
So they are not going straight into series. They are at least trying to bring over some Cpt Marvel readers, as well as using the publicity to perhaps bring in some new audience.
As for those saying a new character should start in a team and then break out into a solo feature later-- I get that, but thinking of Marvel history, it has much more often gone the other way: characters have more often been tried out of their own features, and new teams are usually anchored by having some (or all) of the lineup be characters that have already had their own series or mini. Heck, even in the original New Warriors, at least three of the members already had their own solo title (including minis, which were much more frequent back then) before New Warriors launched. In fact, I think Night Thrasher was the actual only new character when NW were introduced in Thor.
So for those saying that Marvel is doing this new Ms. Marvel a different way, or that they should do it differently than how they are, I would suggest thinking back on your Marvel history: they are actually doing it the usual Marvel way (not the ONLY Marvel way, of course, as there are also original team intros like FF and X-Men, but I think they have much more often gone with the Avengers approach)
Will that insure success? Of course not. But there have been many times where a character (or a new version of a character) goes quickly to series at Marvel and succeeds. Just as there have been many instances if characters from team books getting their own solo title and failing. There could be a graveyard of such books for X-characters (as well as a number of breakout hits, like the Wolverine and Deadpool franchises). At the end of the day, there is no one way to do it. But I think it is interesting that energy is being spent saying they are doing it wrong with Ms. Marvel when the approach is the usual one. I mean, there aren't as many new solo books at all these days, but when they do one, they usually do it like this.
Do you think Ms. Marvel & new characters should be featured in other books (not necessarily a solo character's book, team book, but maybe a Team up title) to generate interest before he/she gets a solo book?
Well they have done some of that for Ms. Marvel, actually. Not a full mini, but the character has been (or will be, not sure if these are out yet) issues of Captain Marvel before her own title launches. And she also has a story in the recent All New Marvel Now anthology that is meant to promote upcoming titles.
Making one or two very brief and recent appearances in Captain Marvel #14 (August 2013) and Captain Marvel #17 (November 2013) as just some random fan is hardly what I'd call thoughtful or significant appearances in what @Matt was describing. And her full debut in an anthology title like All-New Marvel NOW! Point-One #1 that just came out last month before her title is coming out next month is perfunctory at best. The idea I think @Matt was getting at was to test the waters first and see how fans responded. You know, supply a demand. There is no demand for this sixteen year old Ms. Marvel. They planned this solo title and then scheduled two or three appearances to precede it simply to introduce her before the solo launch went to press. Any current Ms. Marvel or Captain Marvel fans are more likely to be Carol Danvers fans, not Kamala Khan fans. Heck, even Kamala Khan is a Carol Danvers fan - hmm, then again, maybe that will be the draw...
...even in the original New Warriors, at least three of the members already had their own solo title (including minis, which were much more frequent back then) before New Warriors launched. In fact, I think Night Thrasher was the actual only new character when NW were introduced in Thor.
And we remember how well the Night Thrasher book did.
So for those saying that Marvel is doing this new Ms. Marvel a different way, or that they should do it differently than how they are, I would suggest thinking back on your Marvel history: they are actually doing it the usual Marvel way (not the ONLY Marvel way, of course, as there are also original team intros like FF and X-Men, but I think they have much more often gone with the Avengers approach)
I remember how Wolverine started, and that seemed to work out pretty well. A brief appearance in another legacy character's book - Incredible Hulk, then he joined the X-Men, then eventually he got his own (limited series) title, and then an ongoing title.
there have been many times where a character (or a new version of a character) goes quickly to series at Marvel and succeeds.
I'd love to hear about a few of these, because I am scratching my head at the moment. The only thing that keeps coming to mind is Silver Sable... so I'm drawing a blank.
The bottom line is that those on here expressing dissatisfaction with how Marvel is rolling out this character would probably be delighted to see the book succeed, but their interest level has not been piqued enough to support it in any significant way. Furthermore, we're already hedging our bets and expressing our opinions on how Marvel may actually being screwing up this roll-out by pushing a character that few people are even interested in. I for one will be the first to say "I was wrong" if this book succeeds beyond Fearless Defenders or Morbius without being subsidized somehow. Then again, I just don't think it will come to that. We just have different opinions on this.
Didn't Infinity sell well? And wasn't it a limited series?
Infinity was an event series, a culmination of a year's worth of stories and a launching point for the next year of books. I don't think today's market would be friendly to something like 'Longshot' or even 'Kitty Pride and Wolverine'
Longshot Saves the Marvel Universe #1 outsold Captain Marvel, Animal Man, Avengers Arena, Superboy, Adventure Time, Fatale, Doctor Who, and many other books in November 2013 when it debuted. Issue #2 didn't do quite as well, but it was a 4-issue mini.
My bottom line is that Marvel rolls out new books this way all the time. Some succeed, some don't. Like everything else.
But for some reason, this time around some people who have said from the beginning they have no interest in buying this book are still criticizing Marvel at length for publishing it, or publishing it this way, or armchair quarterbacking the roll-out four forum pages later. It seems a lot of investment for one superhero title in a large line of books that tries out new titles all the time.
You tell me: what's the difference this time?
Why not this same level of resistance about, say, the new version of Nova that launched the same way? (In fact, I think there was even less groundwork laid for the Sam Alexander Nova. I think he only had the Marvel Point One anthology appearance, and didn't even have appearances in other regular titles. Plus, there hadn't been a Nova title in years, so he was picking up a less recent mantle.) It could have been argued that there was no demand for a fifteen year old Nova last year. But you know what? That seemed to work out. And, sure, it had a big name creative team on it, but there is also an opportunity cost to that. I don't recall quite as much energy critiquing the roll out of a new Nova, or a lot of complaints that McGuinness was being put on a new teenage Nova title instead of a more sure bet. Since when do we want Marvel to only go with the sure bets and guaranteed demands? How many more Avengers and Wolverine books do you need?
Some books succeed and some don't. So you tell me why the rollout of this one new character version seems to be so interesting to people who have already said they aren't going to read it? Are they gambling on it with your money? Are you a longtime Ms. Marvel fan?
Why not have this level of criticism about, say, the new version of Nova that launched the same way? (In fact, I think there was even less groundwork laid for the Sam Alexander Nova. I think he only had the Marvel Point One anthology appearance, and didn't even have appearances in other regular titles. Plus, there hadn't been a Nova title in years, so he was picking up a less recent mantle.) It could have been argued that there was no demand for a fifteen year old Nova last year. But you know what? That seemed to work out, and I don't recall quite as much energy critiquing the roll out of a new Nova.
For the record, I feel the same regardless of the new character. I don't recall Nova getting the PR that Ms. Marvel, but that could be because I can't remember it. My initial post wasn't directed specifically at Khan, but new characters in general.
Why not have this level of criticism about, say, the new version of Nova that launched the same way? (In fact, I think there was even less groundwork laid for the Sam Alexander Nova. I think he only had the Marvel Point One anthology appearance, and didn't even have appearances in other regular titles. Plus, there hadn't been a Nova title in years, so he was picking up a less recent mantle.) It could have been argued that there was no demand for a fifteen year old Nova last year. But you know what? That seemed to work out, and I don't recall quite as much energy critiquing the roll out of a new Nova.
For the record, I feel the same regardless of the new character. I don't recall Nova getting the PR that Ms. Marvel, but that could be because I can't remember it. My initial post wasn't directed specifically at Khan, but new characters in general.
M
And that PR is, what, a bad thing?
Better their new titles are more stealthy?
I would bet they would loved to have had this much PR for Nova. And everything else they sell.
EDIT- But I would say, given that they got the PR they did, there is probably even *less* need for them to put the character in other places before her own title, no? I think the amount of visibility the character has (and controversy, given even this conversation) only supports their approach of pushing quickly to a solo title rather than having her on a team.
Why not this same level of resistance about, say, the new version of Nova that launched the same way? (In fact, I think there was even less groundwork laid for the Sam Alexander Nova. I think he only had the Marvel Point One anthology appearance, and didn't even have appearances in other regular titles. Plus, there hadn't been a Nova title in years, so he was picking up a less recent mantle.) It could have been argued that there was no demand for a fifteen year old Nova last year. But you know what? That seemed to work out. And, sure, it had a big name creative team on it, but there is also an opportunity cost to that. I don't recall quite as much energy critiquing the roll out of a new Nova, or a lot of complaints that McGuinness was being put on a new teenage Nova title instead of a more sure bet. Since when do we want Marvel to only go with the sure bets and guaranteed demands?
Oh? I thought the new Nova had appeared in the Avengers Vs X-Men a few times, the first Marvel Point One, and also had been on the new Ultimate Spider-Man cartoon for a over year before they launched his own title. The demand was most likely due to the animated series and the fact that people actually missed Nova. No one is missing Ms/Capt Marvel, so I don't think it is a fair comparison.
So you tell me why the rollout of this one new character version seems to be so interesting to people who have already said they aren't going to read it? Are they gambling on it with your money? Are you a longtime Ms. Marvel fan?
I was enjoying the debate. You made a lot of good points. I hope that I'm not upsetting you @David_D. I am happy to stop debating the merits of it all and just say: you win. Go ahead and buy an extra copy of Ms. Marvel to cancel out my dismissal if you like. I don't mind, and if the book succeeds, I will hunt down this thread and offer you kudos.
@bralinator I am not looking to win, or end the discussion. Because there is actually nothing to win.
But I also think your accusation that Marvel is handling this rollout differently than other characters just to get their "diversity badge" does not hold up in the context of how Marvel has launched so many other solo character titles in its history. Because, business-wise. this is business as usual. They actually are not handling it differently. It is simply not the case- going back to the '60s, that a new character, or even new version of a character, needs to hang around the MU or a team long enough that they then get a solo title KNOWING that there is a demand.
Sometimes that is the case. And sometimes they just go for it. It's a thing I like about Marvel as a longterm fan of theirs. Sometimes they take chances, and find out if there is a demand by publishing. And some of those risks on unusual ideas have led to some of my favorite and most unusual Marvel titles over the years.
And, if anything is different than usual this time, it is that there is actually more visibility and expectation around this #1 than a lot of other titles. Which, as a Marvel fan and a comics fan, I actually see as a good thing. If this succeeds, maybe it supports the launch of more Marvel titles that don't Avengers, "X-", Wolvering, or Spider-Man in their name. I don't see that as a bad thing. I actually don't personally have much interest in the new Ms. Marvel, as I have not been a fan of Wilson's writing in the past, and I tend to not go for teenage characters. So this one may not be for me, which is fine. But I hope it succeeds because that might support them taking a risk on something I will dig. And I think it is always a positive when a book finds an audience.
Your points don't upset me. But as a longtime Marvel fan, I think some of what you are saying of the mistakes they are supposedly making is inaccurate enough to not go unchallenged. That's all.
But I also think your accusation that Marvel is handling this rollout differently than other characters just to get their "diversity badge" does not hold up in the context of how Marvel has launched so many other solo character titles in its history. Because, business-wise. this is business as usual. They actually are not handling it differently. It is simply not the case- going back to the '60s, that a new character, or even new version of a character, needs to hang around the MU or a team long enough that they then get a solo title KNOWING that there is a demand.
Yet you've failed to give any examples of this. And using the Fantastic Four and the Avengers roll-outs from 50 years ago barely qualifies as anecdotal evidence of your points being correct.
as a longtime Marvel fan, I think some of what you are saying of the mistakes they are supposedly making is inaccurate enough to not go unchallenged. That's all.
And yet you chose not to respond to my response about how they rolled out Nova...
the new Nova had appeared in the Avengers Vs X-Men a few times, the first Marvel Point One, and also had been on the new Ultimate Spider-Man cartoon for a over year before they launched his own title. The demand was most likely due to the animated series and the fact that people actually missed Nova. No one is missing Ms/Capt Marvel, so I don't think it is a fair comparison.
You can disagree with me all you like, but I don't think you can call my assessment inaccurate by a long shot. My question is what is your purpose of vehemently defending this book? Is it really because you want Marvel to stop making so many Avengers and X-Men books and to try out new characters? I'm sure that you're smart enough that you realize they are risking failure by doing that.
I submit this book will be a failure, and I have explained in nauseating detail why and even used multiple examples and perspectives to show you why I think that. It isn't a proven science or a fact that it will fail, but I believe it will. The ONLY excuse for it that I can come up with is that they are going for the diversity angle. That is what the media jumped on, that is what Marvel has promoted, that is what we see in the content of the preview pages, and that is what it is... so far. However, I'd still like to know, since you admit that you have no interest in the new Ms. Marvel, what has been your point? That we should all support books that we aren't interested in so that Marvel succeeds at publishing books based on new characters that we have no interest in? No thanks.
Maybe you're just upset that I would even criticize Marvel for this. And maybe upset is too strong a word.
Why not have this level of criticism about, say, the new version of Nova that launched the same way? (In fact, I think there was even less groundwork laid for the Sam Alexander Nova. I think he only had the Marvel Point One anthology appearance, and didn't even have appearances in other regular titles. Plus, there hadn't been a Nova title in years, so he was picking up a less recent mantle.) It could have been argued that there was no demand for a fifteen year old Nova last year. But you know what? That seemed to work out, and I don't recall quite as much energy critiquing the roll out of a new Nova.
For the record, I feel the same regardless of the new character. I don't recall Nova getting the PR that Ms. Marvel, but that could be because I can't remember it. My initial post wasn't directed specifically at Khan, but new characters in general.
M
And that PR is, what, a bad thing?
Better their new titles are more stealthy?
I would bet they would loved to have had this much PR for Nova. And everything else they sell.
EDIT- But I would say, given that they got the PR they did, there is probably even *less* need for them to put the character in other places before her own title, no? I think the amount of visibility the character has (and controversy, given even this conversation) only supports their approach of pushing quickly to a solo title rather than having her on a team.
I didn't say PR was a bad thing or shouldn't occur. I meant I don't recall the Nova PR. I'm sure it happened (apparently there are PRs daily.) if this was the new Nova, I'd feel the same way to approach it.
Moon Knight first appearred in another character's title, then in spotlight titles, Hulk Magazines, & bounced around as guest appearances before landing his own title.
But I also think your accusation that Marvel is handling this rollout differently than other characters just to get their "diversity badge" does not hold up in the context of how Marvel has launched so many other solo character titles in its history. Because, business-wise. this is business as usual. They actually are not handling it differently. It is simply not the case- going back to the '60s, that a new character, or even new version of a character, needs to hang around the MU or a team long enough that they then get a solo title KNOWING that there is a demand.
Yet you've failed to give any examples of this. And using the Fantastic Four and the Avengers roll-outs from 50 years ago barely qualifies as anecdotal evidence of your points being correct.
as a longtime Marvel fan, I think some of what you are saying of the mistakes they are supposedly making is inaccurate enough to not go unchallenged. That's all.
And yet you chose not to respond to my response about how they rolled out Nova...
the new Nova had appeared in the Avengers Vs X-Men a few times, the first Marvel Point One, and also had been on the new Ultimate Spider-Man cartoon for a over year before they launched his own title. The demand was most likely due to the animated series and the fact that people actually missed Nova. No one is missing Ms/Capt Marvel, so I don't think it is a fair comparison.
You can disagree with me all you like, but I don't think you can call my assessment inaccurate by a long shot. My question is what is your purpose of vehemently defending this book? Is it really because you want Marvel to stop making so many Avengers and X-Men books and to try out new characters? I'm sure that you're smart enough that you realize they are risking failure by doing that.
I submit this book will be a failure, and I have explained in nauseating detail why and even used multiple examples and perspectives to show you why I think that. It isn't a proven science or a fact that it will fail, but I believe it will. The ONLY excuse for it that I can come up with is that they are going for the diversity angle. That is what the media jumped on, that is what Marvel has promoted, that is what we see in the content of the preview pages, and that is what it is... so far. However, I'd still like to know, since you admit that you have no interest in the new Ms. Marvel, what has been your point? That we should all support books that we aren't interested in so that Marvel succeeds at publishing books based on new characters that we have no interest in? No thanks.
Maybe you're just upset that I would even criticize Marvel for this. And maybe upset is too strong a word.
My point is that I don't fault them for trying. And I have been a little surprised at the amount of grief they are getting over it from those that seem to fault them for trying. . . on a book they were never going to read anyway. About a character mantle that, it seems, most people criticizing don't even have some long historical love for, like a Flash or a "Wally West".
Maybe I have a bias against arguing that a book shouldn't get tried, even if I am not going to read it myself. I can look at the announcement of a book and not buy in. But I think, if you are basically saying this is something that they SHOULDN'T do, then I have a high standard for what facts you have on your side. Because I just don't see the harm. It may fail. Everything may fail. So what? More things will get tried instead. I don't think them trying a Morbius solo book broke anything. Were they *sure* there was demand for a Morbius book? Probably not. But I don't fault them for trying.
It is one book in a big line of books. I am surprised at the amount of skin some seem to have in the game on this one, that's all. I am not saying people can't criticize. Of course they can. But I am a little surprised by the passion behind it.
This specific book may not be for me, and it may not even be aimed at me. But I don't fault them for trying. They make PLENTY of books for me, that I enjoy, more than I have time to read. In fact, to take the long view, they should be taking more chances and making more books that aren't aimed at me.
If I am defending or pushing back against something, it is the vehemence that has been directed at this book from the announcement. I think that is a rush to judgment, and I think the way they are rolling out this book- which is like how they have rolled out books for years, and is in keeping with new characters, and new versions of characters, they have given chances to for decades.
You know what? I criticized DC for putting a gun in Simon Baz's hand when he made his debut in Green Lantern #0. It was stupid since he had the power of Green Lantern and they only did it to make him seem "edgy". Was I wrong to criticize that?
I still think this is more about a diversity badge, as I've seen in the past few years from both of the "bigs", but obviously you don't think there is any such thing. We'll just have to agree to disagree. The kids are excited about comics, isn't that all that matters?
I didn't say PR was a bad thing or shouldn't occur. I meant I don't recall the Nova PR. I'm sure it happened (apparently there are PRs daily.) if this was the new Nova, I'd feel the same way to approach it.
Typically, every news outlet simply copies the text of the official press release (emailed as they are written by marketing) and makes it a preview article. With Nova, it began with...
You know what? I criticized DC for putting a gun in Simon Baz's hand when he made his debut in Green Lantern #0. It was stupid since he had the power of Green Lantern and they only did it to make him seem "edgy". Was I wrong to criticize that?
I still think this is more about a diversity badge, as I've seen in the past few years from both of the "bigs", but obviously you don't think there is any such thing. We'll just have to agree to disagree. The kids are excited about comics, isn't that all that matters?
Yes. It would seem there are kids excited about comics. And that matters. And that is why this is worth trying. No one is saying that it is the only thing that matters, and of course, if you look at the line of comics Marvel is publishing the same month they publish Ms. Marvel, clearly those of us that are not the kids are going to be well-served, too. I would say we will be spoiled for choice.
So even if there will be pushback from those that see this as part of a diversity agenda. What I see when I look at this book is an effort to expand your audience.
Why not have this level of criticism about, say, the new version of Nova that launched the same way? (In fact, I think there was even less groundwork laid for the Sam Alexander Nova. I think he only had the Marvel Point One anthology appearance, and didn't even have appearances in other regular titles. Plus, there hadn't been a Nova title in years, so he was picking up a less recent mantle.) It could have been argued that there was no demand for a fifteen year old Nova last year. But you know what? That seemed to work out, and I don't recall quite as much energy critiquing the roll out of a new Nova.
For the record, I feel the same regardless of the new character. I don't recall Nova getting the PR that Ms. Marvel, but that could be because I can't remember it. My initial post wasn't directed specifically at Khan, but new characters in general.
M
And that PR is, what, a bad thing?
Better their new titles are more stealthy?
I would bet they would loved to have had this much PR for Nova. And everything else they sell.
EDIT- But I would say, given that they got the PR they did, there is probably even *less* need for them to put the character in other places before her own title, no? I think the amount of visibility the character has (and controversy, given even this conversation) only supports their approach of pushing quickly to a solo title rather than having her on a team.
I didn't say PR was a bad thing or shouldn't occur. I meant I don't recall the Nova PR. I'm sure it happened (apparently there are PRs daily.) if this was the new Nova, I'd feel the same way to approach it.
Moon Knight first appearred in another character's title, then in spotlight titles, Hulk Magazines, & bounced around as guest appearances before landing his own title.
M
Sure. Moon Knight had a handful of appearances, and then got an ongoing. You think Marvel was CERTAIN there was demand enough? Or that occasional Spider-Man and Daredevil villain The Punisher would be a character with a feature mini? Or Johnny Blaze, a motorcycle remake of a minor Western character, should get a solo feature after a single appearance in Marvel Spotlight? Or to get to a more modern(ish) favorite, that what we really wanted was a team of apparently new characters called The Thunderbolts, that was actually going to be a long redemption story about B and C list villains?
Many more examples can be found. But Marvel history is full of taking chances on characters that they couldn't have been sure of. Again, it is something I like about them as a company. They try things. Even when they could continue to only double-down on sure bets.
Now-- I wish they would try things even more often then they do these days. But historically, I have appreciated that they have tried a lot of unusual or unintuitive titles over the years. I would call Moon Knight one of those.
And, perhaps, support the book, so that the book continues to exist, and maybe years from now as the book continues on, supported by a broad audience, the character is, simply, "Ms. Marvel" rather than "the new Pakistani-Muslim Ms. Marvel". You know what I mean? But for that to happen, an audience needs to find and support the book first. So I don't fault them for trying to get some press to do that. Just as I don't fault them for trying to get press for when a character dies. (I mean, I fault THE PRESS for actually covering such a silly, almost always temporary thing) But I don't fault the publisher for trying to sell their wares. Hopefully the wares will be quality.
So why am I being vilified for not being interested and even saying "I think it will fail"? Are we all supposed to simply keep our diverse or opposite opinions to ourselves here? Besides, Marvel can't put the toothpaste back in the tube, so "the new Pakistani-Muslim Ms. Marvel" will forever be another version of Ms. Marvel. Just like every other diverse character out there. Some I like, some I don't, and some I'm like... "meh." This is meh for me.
I'm not interested in the character, and the ethnicity is secondary. After seeing the preview pages, I'm even less interested. I don't fault Marvel for trying to make money, and I hope all they do is quality, but this book isn't for me. Why not? Mainly because she is a 16 year old female hero calling herself Ms. Marvel, but she isn't Carol Danvers. The fact that she's holding a copy of the Hadith in her arms (which is basically a rewritten version of the Koran, is secondary, but it feels shoehorned in. If you deny that the big 2 are pushing more diversity then that's one thing, if you admit they are and you applaud it - then that is another.
I am not vilifying you, I am disagreeing with you, individually. There is a difference. And I have not applied a single label to you in this conversation. I have, for example, not called you the "Anti-Diversity Police", or something like that. I have responded to your ideas as the individual you are.
And I don't need you to be interested in it, or buy it. I have never tried to sell you on this book. You can be as uninterested as you want to be. And no one is telling you that you can't spend this amount of time talking about a book that isn't for you that you aren't interested in and think "meh" about.
And I never said that the Big 2 is not pushing diversity. Clearly they are. If you look back, what I said is that to do so, to add diversity, is not political. It is not "political correctness". It is not seeking a "badge".
It is business.
It is a publisher in 2014 attempting to diversify it's READERSHIP. And a way to do that is to diversify your line. By who the characters are. And who is behind the scenes making things.
It could fail. Everything is a risk. But even if it does, I see it not as an ideological act to be applauded. But rather as a smart business move to take these risks, because if the work is good, and attracts and sustains an expanded audience, then you are growing your business. Which is their job.
I don't see this as a political conversation. Rather I have been arguing that this is good business. Even if you have to use some click-bait honey, and even outrage some people (and, no, I am not talking about you, I don't think you are outraged) along the way to help an audience that maybe never even thinks about comics to give something a try.
And that is business.
EDIT- Also, for context, for those not reading back, the paragraph prior to what you quoted is me making clear that the people who I am talking about that might support the book so it continues to exist are the new readers that all the mainstream press attention MIGHT attract. That they might end up supporting the work. Clearly this is not to say you have to support it, or that I expect you to.
Here is the full quote for anyone that cares at this point:
And only the book itself will be able to show what the focus is. As for press releases like these, while I think it does INITIALLY make it seem like the character is being defined by their racial or cultural identity or sexuality, it is also a way to help an audience that they are looking to include and represent find the book. It is a way for those readers who may not be seeing themselves represented to know that they are about to be. We often complain that the comics publishers don't do enough to try to sell their comics to new readers-- there is a chance getting mainstream press may actually do that.
And, perhaps, support the book, so that the book continues to exist, and maybe years from now as the book continues on, supported by a broad audience, the character is, simply, "Ms. Marvel" rather than "the new Pakistani-Muslim Ms. Marvel". You know what I mean? But for that to happen, an audience needs to find and support the book first. So I don't fault them for trying to get some press to do that. Just as I don't fault them for trying to get press for when a character dies. (I mean, I fault THE PRESS for actually covering such a silly, almost always temporary thing) But I don't fault the publisher for trying to sell their wares. Hopefully the wares will be quality.
Why not have this level of criticism about, say, the new version of Nova that launched the same way? (In fact, I think there was even less groundwork laid for the Sam Alexander Nova. I think he only had the Marvel Point One anthology appearance, and didn't even have appearances in other regular titles. Plus, there hadn't been a Nova title in years, so he was picking up a less recent mantle.) It could have been argued that there was no demand for a fifteen year old Nova last year. But you know what? That seemed to work out, and I don't recall quite as much energy critiquing the roll out of a new Nova.
For the record, I feel the same regardless of the new character. I don't recall Nova getting the PR that Ms. Marvel, but that could be because I can't remember it. My initial post wasn't directed specifically at Khan, but new characters in general.
M
And that PR is, what, a bad thing?
Better their new titles are more stealthy?
I would bet they would loved to have had this much PR for Nova. And everything else they sell.
EDIT- But I would say, given that they got the PR they did, there is probably even *less* need for them to put the character in other places before her own title, no? I think the amount of visibility the character has (and controversy, given even this conversation) only supports their approach of pushing quickly to a solo title rather than having her on a team.
I didn't say PR was a bad thing or shouldn't occur. I meant I don't recall the Nova PR. I'm sure it happened (apparently there are PRs daily.) if this was the new Nova, I'd feel the same way to approach it.
Moon Knight first appearred in another character's title, then in spotlight titles, Hulk Magazines, & bounced around as guest appearances before landing his own title.
M
Sure. Moon Knight had a handful of appearances, and then got an ongoing. You think Marvel was CERTAIN there was demand enough? Or that occasional Spider-Man and Daredevil villain The Punisher would be a character with a feature mini? Or Johnny Blaze, a motorcycle remake of a minor Western character, should get a solo feature after a single appearance in Marvel Spotlight? Or to get to a more modern(ish) favorite, that what we really wanted was a team of apparently new characters called The Thunderbolts, that was actually going to be a long redemption story about B and C list villains?
Many more examples can be found. But Marvel history is full of taking chances on characters that they couldn't have been sure of. Again, it is something I like about them as a company. They try things. Even when they could continue to only double-down on sure bets.
Now-- I wish they would try things even more often then they do these days. But historically, I have appreciated that they have tried a lot of unusual or unintuitive titles over the years. I would call Moon Knight one of those.
You gave excellent examples. I'd also suggest those came out a different time. We're in a 'hit or miss' age. Titles that aren't staple characters can struggle to get a good run number of issues. New TV series get canceled after 2 aired episodes. Green a Lantern & Superman Returns had their sequels pulled because they didn't meet the high expectations.
I hope new characters with solo titles can have the longevity that pre-relaunch era of comics had. I just think titles seem to be set up to fail more then succeed.
And, perhaps, support the book, so that the book continues to exist, and maybe years from now as the book continues on, supported by a broad audience, the character is, simply, "Ms. Marvel" rather than "the new Pakistani-Muslim Ms. Marvel". You know what I mean? But for that to happen, an audience needs to find and support the book first. So I don't fault them for trying to get some press to do that. Just as I don't fault them for trying to get press for when a character dies. (I mean, I fault THE PRESS for actually covering such a silly, almost always temporary thing) But I don't fault the publisher for trying to sell their wares. Hopefully the wares will be quality.
So why am I being vilified for not being interested and even saying "I think it will fail"? Are we all supposed to simply keep our diverse or opposite opinions to ourselves here? Besides, Marvel can't put the toothpaste back in the tube, so "the new Pakistani-Muslim Ms. Marvel" will forever be another version of Ms. Marvel. Just like every other diverse character out there. Some I like, some I don't, and some I'm like... "meh." This is meh for me.
I'm not interested in the character, and the ethnicity is secondary. After seeing the preview pages, I'm even less interested. I don't fault Marvel for trying to make money, and I hope all they do is quality, but this book isn't for me. Why not? Mainly because she is a 16 year old female hero calling herself Ms. Marvel, but she isn't Carol Danvers. The fact that she's holding a copy of the Hadith in her arms (which is basically a rewritten version of the Koran, is secondary, but it feels shoehorned in. If you deny that the big 2 are pushing more diversity then that's one thing, if you admit they are and you applaud it - then that is another.
Why not have this level of criticism about, say, the new version of Nova that launched the same way? (In fact, I think there was even less groundwork laid for the Sam Alexander Nova. I think he only had the Marvel Point One anthology appearance, and didn't even have appearances in other regular titles. Plus, there hadn't been a Nova title in years, so he was picking up a less recent mantle.) It could have been argued that there was no demand for a fifteen year old Nova last year. But you know what? That seemed to work out, and I don't recall quite as much energy critiquing the roll out of a new Nova.
For the record, I feel the same regardless of the new character. I don't recall Nova getting the PR that Ms. Marvel, but that could be because I can't remember it. My initial post wasn't directed specifically at Khan, but new characters in general.
M
And that PR is, what, a bad thing?
Better their new titles are more stealthy?
I would bet they would loved to have had this much PR for Nova. And everything else they sell.
EDIT- But I would say, given that they got the PR they did, there is probably even *less* need for them to put the character in other places before her own title, no? I think the amount of visibility the character has (and controversy, given even this conversation) only supports their approach of pushing quickly to a solo title rather than having her on a team.
I didn't say PR was a bad thing or shouldn't occur. I meant I don't recall the Nova PR. I'm sure it happened (apparently there are PRs daily.) if this was the new Nova, I'd feel the same way to approach it.
Moon Knight first appearred in another character's title, then in spotlight titles, Hulk Magazines, & bounced around as guest appearances before landing his own title.
M
Sure. Moon Knight had a handful of appearances, and then got an ongoing. You think Marvel was CERTAIN there was demand enough? Or that occasional Spider-Man and Daredevil villain The Punisher would be a character with a feature mini? Or Johnny Blaze, a motorcycle remake of a minor Western character, should get a solo feature after a single appearance in Marvel Spotlight? Or to get to a more modern(ish) favorite, that what we really wanted was a team of apparently new characters called The Thunderbolts, that was actually going to be a long redemption story about B and C list villains?
Many more examples can be found. But Marvel history is full of taking chances on characters that they couldn't have been sure of. Again, it is something I like about them as a company. They try things. Even when they could continue to only double-down on sure bets.
Now-- I wish they would try things even more often then they do these days. But historically, I have appreciated that they have tried a lot of unusual or unintuitive titles over the years. I would call Moon Knight one of those.
You gave excellent examples. I'd also suggest those came out a different time. We're in a 'hit or miss' age. Titles that aren't staple characters can struggle to get a good run number of issues. New TV series get canceled after 2 aired episodes. Green a Lantern & Superman Returns had their sequels pulled because they didn't meet the high expectations.
I hope new characters with solo titles can have the longevity that pre-relaunch era of comics had. I just think titles seem to be set up to fail more then succeed.
M
I take your point, and certainly it is a tough market. But I still think they have to try. And even in tough markets in the past, they have continued to give things a try. I'm glad they do. We'll see.
EDIT- But another thing that has changed since they were taking risks back in the 60s and 70s on some of the characters we have been talking about, is also that it isn't just a business about selling paper anymore. Some of the risks they have taken on new things, like The Runaways, may not have led to single issue sales that set the world on fire, or a title that lasted 100+ issues. But they gave Runaways some extra chances, and later when it got accolades and a supportive audience, it ended up being (I think I thought I read this, but this goes back a ways) one of Marvel's top selling collected editions to libraries. Certainly I remember hearing about how library groups gave that title a lot of love, and those recommendations can end up getting a lot of libraries and schools to buy a book. Runaways is also a property that has been mentioned on the short list of things that might get made by Marvel Studios. Pushing ahead of a lot of properties decades older. If that ends up happening, then the investment in betting on a new thing called Runaways in a tough market could end up paying off in ways that would have seemed pretty far off in 2003.
So, remember, a title can run for a long time, or run just a couple of years and still have been worth doing. Especially if it finds an audience as a book, or launches a character or story that can get used a different way later.
It is a different business in many ways then it used to be.
And, perhaps, support the book, so that the book continues to exist, and maybe years from now as the book continues on, supported by a broad audience, the character is, simply, "Ms. Marvel" rather than "the new Pakistani-Muslim Ms. Marvel". You know what I mean? But for that to happen, an audience needs to find and support the book first. So I don't fault them for trying to get some press to do that. Just as I don't fault them for trying to get press for when a character dies. (I mean, I fault THE PRESS for actually covering such a silly, almost always temporary thing) But I don't fault the publisher for trying to sell their wares. Hopefully the wares will be quality.
So why am I being vilified for not being interested and even saying "I think it will fail"? Are we all supposed to simply keep our diverse or opposite opinions to ourselves here? Besides, Marvel can't put the toothpaste back in the tube, so "the new Pakistani-Muslim Ms. Marvel" will forever be another version of Ms. Marvel. Just like every other diverse character out there. Some I like, some I don't, and some I'm like... "meh." This is meh for me.
I'm not interested in the character, and the ethnicity is secondary. After seeing the preview pages, I'm even less interested. I don't fault Marvel for trying to make money, and I hope all they do is quality, but this book isn't for me. Why not? Mainly because she is a 16 year old female hero calling herself Ms. Marvel, but she isn't Carol Danvers. The fact that she's holding a copy of the Hadith in her arms (which is basically a rewritten version of the Koran, is secondary, but it feels shoehorned in. If you deny that the big 2 are pushing more diversity then that's one thing, if you admit they are and you applaud it - then that is another.
And, perhaps, support the book, so that the book continues to exist, and maybe years from now as the book continues on, supported by a broad audience, the character is, simply, "Ms. Marvel" rather than "the new Pakistani-Muslim Ms. Marvel". You know what I mean? But for that to happen, an audience needs to find and support the book first. So I don't fault them for trying to get some press to do that. Just as I don't fault them for trying to get press for when a character dies. (I mean, I fault THE PRESS for actually covering such a silly, almost always temporary thing) But I don't fault the publisher for trying to sell their wares. Hopefully the wares will be quality.
So why am I being vilified for not being interested and even saying "I think it will fail"? Are we all supposed to simply keep our diverse or opposite opinions to ourselves here? Besides, Marvel can't put the toothpaste back in the tube, so "the new Pakistani-Muslim Ms. Marvel" will forever be another version of Ms. Marvel. Just like every other diverse character out there. Some I like, some I don't, and some I'm like... "meh." This is meh for me.
I'm not interested in the character, and the ethnicity is secondary. After seeing the preview pages, I'm even less interested. I don't fault Marvel for trying to make money, and I hope all they do is quality, but this book isn't for me. Why not? Mainly because she is a 16 year old female hero calling herself Ms. Marvel, but she isn't Carol Danvers. The fact that she's holding a copy of the Hadith in her arms (which is basically a rewritten version of the Koran, is secondary, but it feels shoehorned in. If you deny that the big 2 are pushing more diversity then that's one thing, if you admit they are and you applaud it - then that is another.
Ooh, ooh. Can I give you a label:
Angry
M
I don't think labels move the discussion forward.
Haha, you should hear how I brought levity to my wife's pain during the birth of our daughter!
And, perhaps, support the book, so that the book continues to exist, and maybe years from now as the book continues on, supported by a broad audience, the character is, simply, "Ms. Marvel" rather than "the new Pakistani-Muslim Ms. Marvel". You know what I mean? But for that to happen, an audience needs to find and support the book first. So I don't fault them for trying to get some press to do that. Just as I don't fault them for trying to get press for when a character dies. (I mean, I fault THE PRESS for actually covering such a silly, almost always temporary thing) But I don't fault the publisher for trying to sell their wares. Hopefully the wares will be quality.
So why am I being vilified for not being interested and even saying "I think it will fail"? Are we all supposed to simply keep our diverse or opposite opinions to ourselves here? Besides, Marvel can't put the toothpaste back in the tube, so "the new Pakistani-Muslim Ms. Marvel" will forever be another version of Ms. Marvel. Just like every other diverse character out there. Some I like, some I don't, and some I'm like... "meh." This is meh for me.
I'm not interested in the character, and the ethnicity is secondary. After seeing the preview pages, I'm even less interested. I don't fault Marvel for trying to make money, and I hope all they do is quality, but this book isn't for me. Why not? Mainly because she is a 16 year old female hero calling herself Ms. Marvel, but she isn't Carol Danvers. The fact that she's holding a copy of the Hadith in her arms (which is basically a rewritten version of the Koran, is secondary, but it feels shoehorned in. If you deny that the big 2 are pushing more diversity then that's one thing, if you admit they are and you applaud it - then that is another.
Ooh, ooh. Can I give you a label:
Angry
M
I don't think labels move the discussion forward.
Haha, you should hear how I brought levity to my wife's pain during the birth of our daughter!
Comments
I think I would have like to seen this character appear in something leading to her solo... an arc in an Avengers title (probably Mighty), then the solo flashes back to the origin. It worked pretty well for Nova... introduced in AvX, then elaborated on.
Nu Ms. Marvel will get the axe in 6 - 8 issues and then the character will be shoehorned into the recently relaunched New Warriors line-up... only to have that book axed 6 - 8 issues later.
I think they've put the cart before the horse at the very least. Even planning to intro her in the New Warriors or any other title first before promoting her to her own book seems premature. How about introducing new characters and then, if the public demands it, give the character their own book? Seems like that should be standard operating procedure by now. The fact that the same treatment wasn't applied to this book further convinces me that this is more about Marvel earning a diversity badge than selling books.
I wonder if the problem isn't also the fact that most people who are buying from Marvel or DC are looking for established characters. And there may be a more positive response if new characters are introduced in an already established book. If readers want "new" stuff there is always Vertigo, Image, IDW, etc.
So they are not going straight into series. They are at least trying to bring over some Cpt Marvel readers, as well as using the publicity to perhaps bring in some new audience.
As for those saying a new character should start in a team and then break out into a solo feature later-- I get that, but thinking of Marvel history, it has much more often gone the other way: characters have more often been tried out of their own features, and new teams are usually anchored by having some (or all) of the lineup be characters that have already had their own series or mini. Heck, even in the original New Warriors, at least three of the members already had their own solo title (including minis, which were much more frequent back then) before New Warriors launched. In fact, I think Night Thrasher was the actual only new character when NW were introduced in Thor.
So for those saying that Marvel is doing this new Ms. Marvel a different way, or that they should do it differently than how they are, I would suggest thinking back on your Marvel history: they are actually doing it the usual Marvel way (not the ONLY Marvel way, of course, as there are also original team intros like FF and X-Men, but I think they have much more often gone with the Avengers approach)
Will that insure success? Of course not. But there have been many times where a character (or a new version of a character) goes quickly to series at Marvel and succeeds. Just as there have been many instances if characters from team books getting their own solo title and failing. There could be a graveyard of such books for X-characters (as well as a number of breakout hits, like the Wolverine and Deadpool franchises). At the end of the day, there is no one way to do it. But I think it is interesting that energy is being spent saying they are doing it wrong with Ms. Marvel when the approach is the usual one. I mean, there aren't as many new solo books at all these days, but when they do one, they usually do it like this.
I remember how Wolverine started, and that seemed to work out pretty well. A brief appearance in another legacy character's book - Incredible Hulk, then he joined the X-Men, then eventually he got his own (limited series) title, and then an ongoing title. I'd love to hear about a few of these, because I am scratching my head at the moment. The only thing that keeps coming to mind is Silver Sable... so I'm drawing a blank.
The bottom line is that those on here expressing dissatisfaction with how Marvel is rolling out this character would probably be delighted to see the book succeed, but their interest level has not been piqued enough to support it in any significant way. Furthermore, we're already hedging our bets and expressing our opinions on how Marvel may actually being screwing up this roll-out by pushing a character that few people are even interested in. I for one will be the first to say "I was wrong" if this book succeeds beyond Fearless Defenders or Morbius without being subsidized somehow. Then again, I just don't think it will come to that. We just have different opinions on this.
My bottom line is that Marvel rolls out new books this way all the time. Some succeed, some don't. Like everything else.
But for some reason, this time around some people who have said from the beginning they have no interest in buying this book are still criticizing Marvel at length for publishing it, or publishing it this way, or armchair quarterbacking the roll-out four forum pages later. It seems a lot of investment for one superhero title in a large line of books that tries out new titles all the time.
You tell me: what's the difference this time?
Why not this same level of resistance about, say, the new version of Nova that launched the same way? (In fact, I think there was even less groundwork laid for the Sam Alexander Nova. I think he only had the Marvel Point One anthology appearance, and didn't even have appearances in other regular titles. Plus, there hadn't been a Nova title in years, so he was picking up a less recent mantle.) It could have been argued that there was no demand for a fifteen year old Nova last year. But you know what? That seemed to work out. And, sure, it had a big name creative team on it, but there is also an opportunity cost to that. I don't recall quite as much energy critiquing the roll out of a new Nova, or a lot of complaints that McGuinness was being put on a new teenage Nova title instead of a more sure bet. Since when do we want Marvel to only go with the sure bets and guaranteed demands? How many more Avengers and Wolverine books do you need?
Some books succeed and some don't. So you tell me why the rollout of this one new character version seems to be so interesting to people who have already said they aren't going to read it? Are they gambling on it with your money? Are you a longtime Ms. Marvel fan?
M
Better their new titles are more stealthy?
I would bet they would loved to have had this much PR for Nova. And everything else they sell.
EDIT- But I would say, given that they got the PR they did, there is probably even *less* need for them to put the character in other places before her own title, no? I think the amount of visibility the character has (and controversy, given even this conversation) only supports their approach of pushing quickly to a solo title rather than having her on a team.
But I also think your accusation that Marvel is handling this rollout differently than other characters just to get their "diversity badge" does not hold up in the context of how Marvel has launched so many other solo character titles in its history. Because, business-wise. this is business as usual. They actually are not handling it differently. It is simply not the case- going back to the '60s, that a new character, or even new version of a character, needs to hang around the MU or a team long enough that they then get a solo title KNOWING that there is a demand.
Sometimes that is the case. And sometimes they just go for it. It's a thing I like about Marvel as a longterm fan of theirs. Sometimes they take chances, and find out if there is a demand by publishing. And some of those risks on unusual ideas have led to some of my favorite and most unusual Marvel titles over the years.
And, if anything is different than usual this time, it is that there is actually more visibility and expectation around this #1 than a lot of other titles. Which, as a Marvel fan and a comics fan, I actually see as a good thing. If this succeeds, maybe it supports the launch of more Marvel titles that don't Avengers, "X-", Wolvering, or Spider-Man in their name. I don't see that as a bad thing. I actually don't personally have much interest in the new Ms. Marvel, as I have not been a fan of Wilson's writing in the past, and I tend to not go for teenage characters. So this one may not be for me, which is fine. But I hope it succeeds because that might support them taking a risk on something I will dig. And I think it is always a positive when a book finds an audience.
Your points don't upset me. But as a longtime Marvel fan, I think some of what you are saying of the mistakes they are supposedly making is inaccurate enough to not go unchallenged. That's all.
And yet you chose not to respond to my response about how they rolled out Nova... You can disagree with me all you like, but I don't think you can call my assessment inaccurate by a long shot. My question is what is your purpose of vehemently defending this book? Is it really because you want Marvel to stop making so many Avengers and X-Men books and to try out new characters? I'm sure that you're smart enough that you realize they are risking failure by doing that.
I submit this book will be a failure, and I have explained in nauseating detail why and even used multiple examples and perspectives to show you why I think that. It isn't a proven science or a fact that it will fail, but I believe it will. The ONLY excuse for it that I can come up with is that they are going for the diversity angle. That is what the media jumped on, that is what Marvel has promoted, that is what we see in the content of the preview pages, and that is what it is... so far. However, I'd still like to know, since you admit that you have no interest in the new Ms. Marvel, what has been your point? That we should all support books that we aren't interested in so that Marvel succeeds at publishing books based on new characters that we have no interest in? No thanks.
Maybe you're just upset that I would even criticize Marvel for this. And maybe upset is too strong a word.
Moon Knight first appearred in another character's title, then in spotlight titles, Hulk Magazines, & bounced around as guest appearances before landing his own title.
M
Maybe I have a bias against arguing that a book shouldn't get tried, even if I am not going to read it myself. I can look at the announcement of a book and not buy in. But I think, if you are basically saying this is something that they SHOULDN'T do, then I have a high standard for what facts you have on your side. Because I just don't see the harm. It may fail. Everything may fail. So what? More things will get tried instead. I don't think them trying a Morbius solo book broke anything. Were they *sure* there was demand for a Morbius book? Probably not. But I don't fault them for trying.
It is one book in a big line of books. I am surprised at the amount of skin some seem to have in the game on this one, that's all. I am not saying people can't criticize. Of course they can. But I am a little surprised by the passion behind it.
This specific book may not be for me, and it may not even be aimed at me. But I don't fault them for trying. They make PLENTY of books for me, that I enjoy, more than I have time to read. In fact, to take the long view, they should be taking more chances and making more books that aren't aimed at me.
If I am defending or pushing back against something, it is the vehemence that has been directed at this book from the announcement. I think that is a rush to judgment, and I think the way they are rolling out this book- which is like how they have rolled out books for years, and is in keeping with new characters, and new versions of characters, they have given chances to for decades.
If you want to read supportive responses to the new Ms. Marvel launch, there are plenty of people that are already lining up for it and campaigning others to up their pre-orders in order for it to do well: http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?481376-Ms-Marvel-(Kamala-Khan)-Appreciation
I still think this is more about a diversity badge, as I've seen in the past few years from both of the "bigs", but obviously you don't think there is any such thing. We'll just have to agree to disagree. The kids are excited about comics, isn't that all that matters?
"Marvel is pleased to present your first look at NOVA #1 from the chart-topping, award-winning creative team of Jeph Loeb and Ed McGuinness! "
So even if there will be pushback from those that see this as part of a diversity agenda. What I see when I look at this book is an effort to expand your audience.
And that is what I was saying in defense of this announcement back in November. And I still believe that now. I think why I see this as worth defending, and not deserving of pre-dismissal, has been consistent. I don't need to have my own stake in it, because this one doesn't need to be one for me.
May it be someone's first comic. The first of many more.
Many more examples can be found. But Marvel history is full of taking chances on characters that they couldn't have been sure of. Again, it is something I like about them as a company. They try things. Even when they could continue to only double-down on sure bets.
Now-- I wish they would try things even more often then they do these days. But historically, I have appreciated that they have tried a lot of unusual or unintuitive titles over the years. I would call Moon Knight one of those.
I'm not interested in the character, and the ethnicity is secondary. After seeing the preview pages, I'm even less interested. I don't fault Marvel for trying to make money, and I hope all they do is quality, but this book isn't for me. Why not? Mainly because she is a 16 year old female hero calling herself Ms. Marvel, but she isn't Carol Danvers. The fact that she's holding a copy of the Hadith in her arms (which is basically a rewritten version of the Koran, is secondary, but it feels shoehorned in. If you deny that the big 2 are pushing more diversity then that's one thing, if you admit they are and you applaud it - then that is another.
I am not vilifying you, I am disagreeing with you, individually. There is a difference. And I have not applied a single label to you in this conversation. I have, for example, not called you the "Anti-Diversity Police", or something like that. I have responded to your ideas as the individual you are.
And I don't need you to be interested in it, or buy it. I have never tried to sell you on this book. You can be as uninterested as you want to be. And no one is telling you that you can't spend this amount of time talking about a book that isn't for you that you aren't interested in and think "meh" about.
And I never said that the Big 2 is not pushing diversity. Clearly they are. If you look back, what I said is that to do so, to add diversity, is not political. It is not "political correctness". It is not seeking a "badge".
It is business.
It is a publisher in 2014 attempting to diversify it's READERSHIP. And a way to do that is to diversify your line. By who the characters are. And who is behind the scenes making things.
It could fail. Everything is a risk. But even if it does, I see it not as an ideological act to be applauded. But rather as a smart business move to take these risks, because if the work is good, and attracts and sustains an expanded audience, then you are growing your business. Which is their job.
I don't see this as a political conversation. Rather I have been arguing that this is good business. Even if you have to use some click-bait honey, and even outrage some people (and, no, I am not talking about you, I don't think you are outraged) along the way to help an audience that maybe never even thinks about comics to give something a try.
And that is business.
EDIT- Also, for context, for those not reading back, the paragraph prior to what you quoted is me making clear that the people who I am talking about that might support the book so it continues to exist are the new readers that all the mainstream press attention MIGHT attract. That they might end up supporting the work. Clearly this is not to say you have to support it, or that I expect you to.
Here is the full quote for anyone that cares at this point:
I hope new characters with solo titles can have the longevity that pre-relaunch era of comics had. I just think titles seem to be set up to fail more then succeed.
M
Angry
M
EDIT- But another thing that has changed since they were taking risks back in the 60s and 70s on some of the characters we have been talking about, is also that it isn't just a business about selling paper anymore. Some of the risks they have taken on new things, like The Runaways, may not have led to single issue sales that set the world on fire, or a title that lasted 100+ issues. But they gave Runaways some extra chances, and later when it got accolades and a supportive audience, it ended up being (I think I thought I read this, but this goes back a ways) one of Marvel's top selling collected editions to libraries. Certainly I remember hearing about how library groups gave that title a lot of love, and those recommendations can end up getting a lot of libraries and schools to buy a book. Runaways is also a property that has been mentioned on the short list of things that might get made by Marvel Studios. Pushing ahead of a lot of properties decades older. If that ends up happening, then the investment in betting on a new thing called Runaways in a tough market could end up paying off in ways that would have seemed pretty far off in 2003.
So, remember, a title can run for a long time, or run just a couple of years and still have been worth doing. Especially if it finds an audience as a book, or launches a character or story that can get used a different way later.
It is a different business in many ways then it used to be.
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