We're in a 'hit or miss' age. Titles that aren't staple characters can struggle to get a good run number of issues. New TV series get canceled after 2 aired episodes. Green a Lantern & Superman Returns had their sequels pulled because they didn't meet the high expectations.
I hope new characters with solo titles can have the longevity that pre-relaunch era of comics had. I just think titles seem to be set up to fail more then succeed.
M
I would agree, but I would also suggest that in the earlier days, readers would write in about their fascination with those guest characters and Marvel would decide if there was a demand before they decided to take a chance on a character. This is indeed a different era.
Perhaps the word "vilify" was an unwise choice of words, but the last thing I am is angry, especially at Marvel. Now don't get me started on DC though, that's where I get angry...
I would agree, but I would also suggest that in the earlier days, readers would write in about their fascination with those guest characters and Marvel would decide if there was a demand before they decided to take a chance on a character.
Only a small percentage of readers actually wrote in. No, back then it was the sell-through figures they would get three months after the book hit the stands that told them if a character was popular or not. If a book went from a 40% sell-through to a 50% sell through, they had a hit on their hands. But, like I said, they wouldn’t know until three months after the fact.
These days, the pre-orders you get a month before the release date usually give you a pretty good indication of how successful a title/character is going to be.
That makes more sense, except they probably still look at the reader response and if people stick with a run featuring a character. On a team book, in order to determine the popularity of any individual team member before giving them a solo shot, what would the sell through be based on? Whoever was featured on the cover? Letters of praise to the editor? Both? Neither? Anthology books like MCP might have been the way they did it in the 90's. Are you suggesting it's all based on preorders now? Store preorders or individual preorders, a la DCBS?
Seriously, Can We Get This As A Ms Marvel Poster Please? After all, we know how the new Ms Marvel likes to put up posters on her wall. Why not let a few little girls do the same?
Have that Coca-Cola Super Bowl ad playing while you put it up…
Is he serious? As one commenter at BleedingCool replied, "the force feeding of Captain Marvel and now Ms. Marvel is not going to produce the intended results for Marvel." I wholeheartedly concur.
Johnston wants what he always wants: clickbait stories to get the existing readership buzzing and fighting with him and each other. He wants what *he* can get out of it in the short term. And that is where his intent (and insight) usually ends.
I still think this is more about a diversity badge, as I've seen in the past few years from both of the "bigs", but obviously you don't think there is any such thing. We'll just have to agree to disagree. The kids are excited about comics, isn't that all that matters?
I'm all for diverse heroes. Except, where are all of the short, fat, balding heroes? Where are the ugly heroes or plain looking ones? Where are the plus size women? Wouldn't that properly represent the diverse range of people? Or are you only talking about diversity when it comes to religion, ethnicity, or gender?
Or are you merely saying that there is never anything wrong with promoting diversity for diversity's sake? If diversity means simply accepting everyone for who they are, regardless of their beliefs or cultural differences, then there would be no cultural practice one could call wrong or bad. Cultural practices would simply be "different". But in the real world there actually are some things that are bad and should be discouraged. For example, in many African nations the practice of female genital mutilation is a longstanding cultural tradition. This practice is barbaric, though. We should not accept it for the sake of wanting a different point of view. We know that such a viewpoint is simply unjustifiable. Should it be allowed because it is diverse?
Look, I don't want to keep beating a dead horse. I'm fine with a brand new series featuring an unknown 16 year old Ms. Marvel and way more diversity in comic book characters and all that, just so long as they don't go and make Dr. Doom a girl, okay?
Or are you merely saying that there is never anything wrong with promoting diversity for diversity's sake? If diversity means simply accepting everyone for who they are, regardless of their beliefs or cultural differences, then there would be no cultural practice one could call wrong or bad. Cultural practices would simply be "different". But in the real world there actually are some things that are bad and should be discouraged. For example, in many African nations the practice of female genital mutilation is a longstanding cultural tradition. This practice is barbaric, though. We should not accept it for the sake of wanting a different point of view. We know that such a viewpoint is simply unjustifiable. Should it be allowed because it is diverse?
Using the worst possible examples to attack diversity is just asinine.
That's the same kind of bullshit as saying gay marriage will lead to bestiality.
Look, I don't want to keep beating a dead horse. I'm fine with a brand new series featuring an unknown 16 year old Ms. Marvel and way more diversity in comic book characters and all that, just so long as they don't go and make Dr. Doom a girl, okay?
;)
I am totally excited about a female Dr. Doom.
Victor actually died in the lab accident in college, his sister Victoria, who could not take the throne because of her gender, put on the iron mask and adopted her brother's identity.
And of course, she's secretly been in love with Reed Richards the whole time.
Using the worst possible examples to attack diversity is just asinine.
That's the same kind of bullshit as saying gay marriage will lead to bestiality.
Where did you get that?!? What about my mention of plus size women heroes? Was that a "worst possible example"? Or did you just conveniently overlook that suggestion? Or were you just so upset and reactionary at my comment that you forgot to account for the out -of-shape diversity suggestion? Get a hold of yourself man.
Nevermind. I think you just want to argue and I'm way past bored with this.
That makes more sense, except they probably still look at the reader response and if people stick with a run featuring a character. On a team book, in order to determine the popularity of any individual team member before giving them a solo shot, what would the sell through be based on? Whoever was featured on the cover? Letters of praise to the editor? Both? Neither? Anthology books like MCP might have been the way they did it in the 90's. Are you suggesting it's all based on preorders now? Store preorders or individual preorders, a la DCBS?
Again, reader response is not always an accurate gauge because it’s such a small sample size of the actual readership. There was a lot of guess-work involved, a lot of trial-and-error. There was no sure thing. The Hulk was initially a failure, as were the X-Men. But can you now imagine Marvel without either?
There is still a lot of guess-work, but because sales reports come in much sooner now and are more accurate, companies are able to respond in a quicker fashion. So whereas in the past a company wouldn't know if they had a hot book or not until three issues had already been released, today companies have a pretty good idea before the first issue is released, and they can plan accordingly.
All this means that whereas in the past you had to commit to six issues of any book you were going to launch (you'd want the sales figures for three issues to get a better idea of where the sales would settle out), today you can change a series into a four-issue mini-series without any trouble. You can cut your print runs down to fit the demand right off the bat. In other words, there's a lot less risk involved with starting a new character in a new title today.
Most of us commenting and debating on this thread grew up with comic books. Many of us learned to form our first words and develop a love of reading via these funnybooks. From this our "mythologies" are born - that with great power comes great responsibility, that a child can never escape the torments of his youth - but can use it as a weapon to make the world safe for others in a way he never was, that a jet can be invisible, that if you get a bunch of chemicals poured on you you'll develop super-speed and not have your flesh eaten away, that a miniskirt is a practical costume if you're a woman who can fly...ideals that many of carry to this day.
And you're going to tell me now that some impressionable kid may pick up this book and formulate the opinion that a girl...who's also a muslim yet fantastically isn't out to bomb something or hate America...can possibly be a hero to admire and look up to?
I'm all for diverse heroes. Except, where are all of the short, fat, balding heroes? Where are the ugly heroes or plain looking ones? Where are the plus size women? Wouldn't that properly represent the diverse range of people? Or are you only talking about diversity when it comes to religion, ethnicity, or gender?
I think there is a big difference between diversity of religion, ethnicity, and gender versus diversity of size and beauty, especially when dealing with heroic fantasy. Super-heroes are basically stand-ins for the heroes, gods, and demi-gods of mythology. They represent the pinnacle of the human (or godly) race. And they serve as wish fullfillment for the readers. And frankly, no one aspires to be a short, fat, balding guy. (As a short, overweight, and slowly balding guy, I should know.) That’s not to say there’s no place for a short, fat, balding superhero or a plus-size superheroine in comics.
However, a black kid doesn’t necessarily want to be a handsome, super-strong white guy. He’d probably rather be a handsome, super-strong black guy. A Muslim girl probably doesn’t want to be a handsome, shape-changing white guy, but may well want to be a pretty, shape-changing Muslim girl.
That’s the point of comic companies trying to diversify the race, ethnicities, and genders of their heroes—to bring in more people to an ever-shrinking market.
Look, I don't want to keep beating a dead horse. I'm fine with a brand new series featuring an unknown 16 year old Ms. Marvel and way more diversity in comic book characters and all that, just so long as they don't go and make Dr. Doom a girl, okay?
;)
I'm asking only because I'm not clear on where you're coming from & want to make sure I can follow your thought process:
In another thread, you argued the new DC character Wally West should be exactly the same as an old character named Wally West. Rather then make THIS new character racially diverse, they should create a new racially diverse Flash (which technically they did.)
Marvel created a racially & (potentially) religiously diverse Ms. Marvel and you're not only poo pooing it, but boasting you won't buy the book. Even stating its not 'Carol Danvers.'
So, are you saying new diverse characters shouldn't effect 'your' characters & its for "other people" to buy/collect those titles to get the Big2 to create new diverse characters?
Most of us commenting and debating on this thread grew up with comic books. Many of us learned to form our first words and develop a love of reading via these funnybooks. From this our "mythologies" are born - that with great power comes great responsibility, that a child can never escape the torments of his youth - but can use it as a weapon to make the world safe for others in a way he never was, that a jet can be invisible, that if you get a bunch of chemicals poured on you you'll develop super-speed and not have your flesh eaten away, that a miniskirt is a practical costume if you're a woman who can fly...ideals that many of carry to this day.
And you're going to tell me now that some impressionable kid may pick up this book and formulate the opinion that a girl...who's also a muslim yet fantastically isn't out to bomb something or hate America...can possibly be a hero to admire and look up to?
Using the worst possible examples to attack diversity is just asinine.
That's the same kind of bullshit as saying gay marriage will lead to bestiality.
Where did you get that?!? What about my mention of plus size women heroes? Was that a "worst possible example"? Or did you just conveniently overlook that suggestion? Or were you just so upset and reactionary at my comment that you forgot to account for the out -of-shape diversity suggestion? Get a hold of yourself man.
Nevermind. I think you just want to argue and I'm way past bored with this.
No, I just thought the "plus-size thing" was nonsense and unworthy of comment.
It pretty much vanished in light of your ridiculous female circumcision example.
I don't want to argue either, but neither am I gonna "agree to disagree" just because you're "bored".
So, are you saying new diverse characters shouldn't effect 'your' characters & its for "other people" to buy/collect those titles to get the Big2 to create new diverse characters?
M
Great question Matt.
Shorter answer: No I'm not saying that. I don't think we need to change popular, beloved, established characters into new and diverse characters or even change them into the plain old boring Caucasian ones unless those characters generally sucked to begin with. Make a new character, expect legitimate criticism, and expect the fans to buy what they want.
Rant answer: Lets use a few of your examples to respond, plus a few more.
I didn't really have much to say in this thread until well after you and many others groused that this seemed more about Marvel promoting the ethnicity of the character than anything else. Until you mentioned it, I was simply in the category of "uninterested". The art was "meh" and I don't buy or read teen girl comics. Yet, the more I thought about it and saw the press on it, the more it appeared as if we were being "force fed" the all-new Ms. Muslim Marvel gal instead of simply being introduced to the character as part of a team or in an ongoing and letting the interest build. There was no organic growth to it. So my very first point in this thread was essentially agreeing with your points and admitting that was I wasn't interested in buying it. Within a few more comments, I felt persuaded to defend my disinterest - based primarily on the push back being all about how we should support diversity and we should like this new book and welcome changing established characters.
As far as Wally West being black, my point there was that I'd been feeling nostalgic for the Wally West I always liked - Kid Flash. The one missing from the New 52. In that thread I was basically told, get over it, he's dead, go read your back issues. I pushed back, but in the end, my "sour grapes" response was based on the point that the brand new Wally West is now modeled on CW's test marketed African American Wally & Iris West. Learning that the comics were going to duplicate CW dashed any notions that I and many others had been nursing that Wally West's return would somehow destroy the craptacular New 52 and bring about a revival of the old 52 or whatever it's being referred to these days (may it rest in peace). Maybe it still will, but that's doubtful at this point. Besides, my dealings with DC are now at end since I just ordered my last DC book from DCBS (issue #8 of 8 of Trillium - technically a Vertigo title, but whatever).
I mentioned Simon Baz regarding the way he was rolled out in the new 52. Which was my problem with Ms. Marvel - how they're rolling it out. I got that he was actually a street level criminal, but putting a gun in his hand on the cover after he was clearly in Green Lantern garb was just dumb. He had the power of the ring, why even hold a gun? His ethnicity seems to have been unimportant after all the hub-bub and yet since the ring appears to have been faulty is that a condemnation of Arab Americans? I mean Geoff Johns has a completely different mess on his hands with that run. I can admire that Marvel isn't exactly downplaying Kamala Khan's Muslim beliefs, because anyone would have been hard-pressed to find it in Green Lantern at all. So what was the point of all the press releases about it? Selling books of course. The Muslim-American comic fans Marvel may be going for will probably find more to identify with in Ms. Marvel than they do with a car thief/thug in Green Lantern. Good on them.
Then we come to what FOX is teasing they may or may not do with the Fantastic Four. A black Johnny Storm seemed minor to me. Though I wonder if he and Invisible Girl will be siblings and does it even matter? Then today FOX coyly suggested that they're considering a female Doctor Doom. Why change Doom at all? Gender equality? Do we need more female villains? Diversity? Diversity for diversity's sake? If that's the new model, how long before we should expect a horror movie featuring a red-haired werewolf, or an all new Aborigine Batman title, or a black Santa Claus TV special? Who cares? But if your company decides to take a chance on one of those ideas, be sure that you don't make it seem like a big deal in the material itself. Make it seem very common. Then blow it up in the press so that no one misses how "diversity minded" your company is. That's all that seems to matter in cases like this - getting some press and showing off your diversity. Anything to sell books, right?
And you "angry" fan-boys better keep your mouths shut - if you know what's good for you.
I ain't buying this one, and all of the support diversity campaigns aren't going to create any interest in me to do so, neither will the "diversity in comics is necessary" argument. They press the diversity angle to sell their books. I get it, but I'm not going to support it just because people want more diversity. I don't particularly care. I'm also not buying Geoff Johns and John Romita Jr's new Superman title. It has nothing to do with diversity or ethnicity. I think Johns writing is weak and I loathe John Romita Jr's artwork. And just like everywhere else it seems like those that disagree with me are willing to disagree with me on that thread too. I will still only buy what I like.
I'm new here, and I don't want to step too hard on a rattlesnake nest, so I'm just going to say that I really like the idea of Kamala Khan as the new Ms. Marvel. From an artistic point of view, it offers a new line of stories to tell, and from an interpersonal angle, it gives another character for people (that is, kids) like her to identify with.
I also just finished reading issue 1. It was a setup story - clearly an Act One - but it was fairly innovative in its storytelling. I like her as a character, and it did well to introduce the supporting cast, and though I thought her family was a little broadly written (perhaps even stereotypical), they only get a few panels each, so I'm thinking they'll get more depth down the line.
A friend of mine has a 9-year-old daughter, and I'm absolutely going to get her every copy of this issue, at least if it keeps up this level. I rate it a 'buy'.
First, let me say that I think more words have been written about the comic before it came out than will be written in the comic even if it gets a 100 issue run. Second, I read the preview and I liked it. I liked the cast of characters in her life and I liked that since they are Muslim I heard the word fakon? Fake bacon? I thought that would be turkey bacon.
I wished that the introduction of the character wasn't a big deal. But it is because its the first time. There was Jackie Robinson then Larry Doby and then a bunch of other guys.
Finally, it comes down to the powers. Her hand gets real big? Am I reading that right. Sort of like Mr. Fantastic? Uh I don't know. When I read the preview I didn't see her power. I thought she would have some kind of cosmic thing?
And for me diversity is not only about seeing me reflected but I want to be exposed to something and somebody different.
Comments
Perhaps the word "vilify" was an unwise choice of words, but the last thing I am is angry, especially at Marvel. Now don't get me started on DC though, that's where I get angry...
These days, the pre-orders you get a month before the release date usually give you a pretty good indication of how successful a title/character is going to be.
Is he serious? As one commenter at BleedingCool replied, "the force feeding of Captain Marvel and now Ms. Marvel is not going to produce the intended results for Marvel." I wholeheartedly concur.
Or are you merely saying that there is never anything wrong with promoting diversity for diversity's sake? If diversity means simply accepting everyone for who they are, regardless of their beliefs or cultural differences, then there would be no cultural practice one could call wrong or bad. Cultural practices would simply be "different". But in the real world there actually are some things that are bad and should be discouraged. For example, in many African nations the practice of female genital mutilation is a longstanding cultural tradition. This practice is barbaric, though. We should not accept it for the sake of wanting a different point of view. We know that such a viewpoint is simply unjustifiable. Should it be allowed because it is diverse?
You get the point. Or was my earlier statement ...not enough?
;)
That's the same kind of bullshit as saying gay marriage will lead to bestiality.
Victor actually died in the lab accident in college, his sister Victoria, who could not take the throne because of her gender, put on the iron mask and adopted her brother's identity.
And of course, she's secretly been in love with Reed Richards the whole time.
Nevermind. I think you just want to argue and I'm way past bored with this.
Here's a peace offering...
There is still a lot of guess-work, but because sales reports come in much sooner now and are more accurate, companies are able to respond in a quicker fashion. So whereas in the past a company wouldn't know if they had a hot book or not until three issues had already been released, today companies have a pretty good idea before the first issue is released, and they can plan accordingly.
All this means that whereas in the past you had to commit to six issues of any book you were going to launch (you'd want the sales figures for three issues to get a better idea of where the sales would settle out), today you can change a series into a four-issue mini-series without any trouble. You can cut your print runs down to fit the demand right off the bat. In other words, there's a lot less risk involved with starting a new character in a new title today.
:))
Most of us commenting and debating on this thread grew up with comic books. Many of us learned to form our first words and develop a love of reading via these funnybooks. From this our "mythologies" are born - that with great power comes great responsibility, that a child can never escape the torments of his youth - but can use it as a weapon to make the world safe for others in a way he never was, that a jet can be invisible, that if you get a bunch of chemicals poured on you you'll develop super-speed and not have your flesh eaten away, that a miniskirt is a practical costume if you're a woman who can fly...ideals that many of carry to this day.
And you're going to tell me now that some impressionable kid may pick up this book and formulate the opinion that a girl...who's also a muslim yet fantastically isn't out to bomb something or hate America...can possibly be a hero to admire and look up to?
Not in my America, pally. :)
/Yes, I'm joking.
However, a black kid doesn’t necessarily want to be a handsome, super-strong white guy. He’d probably rather be a handsome, super-strong black guy. A Muslim girl probably doesn’t want to be a handsome, shape-changing white guy, but may well want to be a pretty, shape-changing Muslim girl.
That’s the point of comic companies trying to diversify the race, ethnicities, and genders of their heroes—to bring in more people to an ever-shrinking market.
But here’s one for the fat guys:
In another thread, you argued the new DC character Wally West should be exactly the same as an old character named Wally West. Rather then make THIS new character racially diverse, they should create a new racially diverse Flash (which technically they did.)
Marvel created a racially & (potentially) religiously diverse Ms. Marvel and you're not only poo pooing it, but boasting you won't buy the book. Even stating its not 'Carol Danvers.'
So, are you saying new diverse characters shouldn't effect 'your' characters & its for "other people" to buy/collect those titles to get the Big2 to create new diverse characters?
M
It pretty much vanished in light of your ridiculous female circumcision example.
I don't want to argue either, but neither am I gonna "agree to disagree" just because you're "bored".
Shorter answer: No I'm not saying that. I don't think we need to change popular, beloved, established characters into new and diverse characters or even change them into the plain old boring Caucasian ones unless those characters generally sucked to begin with. Make a new character, expect legitimate criticism, and expect the fans to buy what they want.
Rant answer: Lets use a few of your examples to respond, plus a few more.
I didn't really have much to say in this thread until well after you and many others groused that this seemed more about Marvel promoting the ethnicity of the character than anything else. Until you mentioned it, I was simply in the category of "uninterested". The art was "meh" and I don't buy or read teen girl comics. Yet, the more I thought about it and saw the press on it, the more it appeared as if we were being "force fed" the all-new Ms. Muslim Marvel gal instead of simply being introduced to the character as part of a team or in an ongoing and letting the interest build. There was no organic growth to it. So my very first point in this thread was essentially agreeing with your points and admitting that was I wasn't interested in buying it. Within a few more comments, I felt persuaded to defend my disinterest - based primarily on the push back being all about how we should support diversity and we should like this new book and welcome changing established characters.
As far as Wally West being black, my point there was that I'd been feeling nostalgic for the Wally West I always liked - Kid Flash. The one missing from the New 52. In that thread I was basically told, get over it, he's dead, go read your back issues. I pushed back, but in the end, my "sour grapes" response was based on the point that the brand new Wally West is now modeled on CW's test marketed African American Wally & Iris West. Learning that the comics were going to duplicate CW dashed any notions that I and many others had been nursing that Wally West's return would somehow destroy the craptacular New 52 and bring about a revival of the old 52 or whatever it's being referred to these days (may it rest in peace). Maybe it still will, but that's doubtful at this point. Besides, my dealings with DC are now at end since I just ordered my last DC book from DCBS (issue #8 of 8 of Trillium - technically a Vertigo title, but whatever).
I mentioned Simon Baz regarding the way he was rolled out in the new 52. Which was my problem with Ms. Marvel - how they're rolling it out. I got that he was actually a street level criminal, but putting a gun in his hand on the cover after he was clearly in Green Lantern garb was just dumb. He had the power of the ring, why even hold a gun? His ethnicity seems to have been unimportant after all the hub-bub and yet since the ring appears to have been faulty is that a condemnation of Arab Americans? I mean Geoff Johns has a completely different mess on his hands with that run. I can admire that Marvel isn't exactly downplaying Kamala Khan's Muslim beliefs, because anyone would have been hard-pressed to find it in Green Lantern at all. So what was the point of all the press releases about it? Selling books of course. The Muslim-American comic fans Marvel may be going for will probably find more to identify with in Ms. Marvel than they do with a car thief/thug in Green Lantern. Good on them.
Then we come to what FOX is teasing they may or may not do with the Fantastic Four. A black Johnny Storm seemed minor to me. Though I wonder if he and Invisible Girl will be siblings and does it even matter? Then today FOX coyly suggested that they're considering a female Doctor Doom. Why change Doom at all? Gender equality? Do we need more female villains? Diversity? Diversity for diversity's sake? If that's the new model, how long before we should expect a horror movie featuring a red-haired werewolf, or an all new Aborigine Batman title, or a black Santa Claus TV special? Who cares? But if your company decides to take a chance on one of those ideas, be sure that you don't make it seem like a big deal in the material itself. Make it seem very common. Then blow it up in the press so that no one misses how "diversity minded" your company is. That's all that seems to matter in cases like this - getting some press and showing off your diversity. Anything to sell books, right?
And you "angry" fan-boys better keep your mouths shut - if you know what's good for you.
I ain't buying this one, and all of the support diversity campaigns aren't going to create any interest in me to do so, neither will the "diversity in comics is necessary" argument. They press the diversity angle to sell their books. I get it, but I'm not going to support it just because people want more diversity. I don't particularly care. I'm also not buying Geoff Johns and John Romita Jr's new Superman title. It has nothing to do with diversity or ethnicity. I think Johns writing is weak and I loathe John Romita Jr's artwork. And just like everywhere else it seems like those that disagree with me are willing to disagree with me on that thread too. I will still only buy what I like.
And.... scene.
I'm new here, and I don't want to step too hard on a rattlesnake nest, so I'm just going to say that I really like the idea of Kamala Khan as the new Ms. Marvel. From an artistic point of view, it offers a new line of stories to tell, and from an interpersonal angle, it gives another character for people (that is, kids) like her to identify with.
I also just finished reading issue 1. It was a setup story - clearly an Act One - but it was fairly innovative in its storytelling. I like her as a character, and it did well to introduce the supporting cast, and though I thought her family was a little broadly written (perhaps even stereotypical), they only get a few panels each, so I'm thinking they'll get more depth down the line.
A friend of mine has a 9-year-old daughter, and I'm absolutely going to get her every copy of this issue, at least if it keeps up this level. I rate it a 'buy'.
I'm hoping for emo Doc Doom
I wished that the introduction of the character wasn't a big deal. But it is because its the first time. There was Jackie Robinson then Larry Doby and then a bunch of other guys.
Finally, it comes down to the powers. Her hand gets real big? Am I reading that right. Sort of like Mr. Fantastic? Uh I don't know. When I read the preview I didn't see her power. I thought she would have some kind of cosmic thing?
And for me diversity is not only about seeing me reflected but I want to be exposed to something and somebody different.