As someone who doesn't care if they kiss or not, I thought the lengths they went to in order to give them an excuse to do so were one of the few times the episode faltered.
And, honestly, while I don't think it's out of line to have an affectionate same sex kiss on a show that's ostensibly geared for families, I can actually understand some people being a little unnerved by their young children watching a human and a Silurian open mouth kiss. It doesn't bother me personally, but if someone tells me it did bother them, my initial reaction isn't "You're a homophobe!", it's "Yeah, I guess it isn't something you see on TV every day."
yeah, I didn't have a problem with the kiss, per se, just as I don't have a problem with Vastra and Jenny's relationship in general. It was the CONSTANT, in-your-face reminders, throughout the episode that wore thin. By the time we got to the kiss, I was angry, because none of it had anything to do with anything, other than someone was obviously trying to push an agenda and make a statement. Sometimes, the best way to get an idea across is by quiet example, not by tattooing it on your forehead.
Who is Missy? Is she an old character or a new character. I would love for her to be the Rani but I am actually hoping she is a brand new character. Thoughts?
We (and by "we" I mean my Wanderers in the 4th Dimension podcast co-hosts, as well as a special guest host) just finished recording our Deep Breath discussion and review. One of my co-hosts gives his theory as to who Missy is, and I got to say he makes a strong case for his prediction, one that he was able to support with all sorts of evidence. Sorry, but I'm not going to steal his thunder by revealing it here. Assuming all goes according to plan, the episode will hit iTunes on Thursday. If you want to know who we think Missy (for he's got me convinced as well), tune in on Thursday.
Links to our various Wanderers in the 4th Dimension social media as well as iTunes listings can be found on my tumblr. page.
@Fade2Black I look forward to your prediction. I will definitely give it a listen. I know Romana has been thrown out there but that one seems very unlikely. A female Meddling Monk, maybe?
Saw it for the second time last night, in a theater. Found that the things I liked I liked even more, and the few things I disliked stood out like a sore thumb the second time around on a big screen.
SPOILERS
THE GOOD
Capaldi - Exactly what I wanted in the next Doctor. We've had two great younger Doctors (okay, Tennant was actually pushing 40, but he looked and played younger), I enjoyed them both, but seeing them up against John Hurt in the 50th highlighted sameness in their approach to their role, and showed us what we were missing in not changing things up. We didn't have as memorable of an "I'm The Doctor" moment like we had with Smith, but I still got a strong sense of what this Doctor is going to be like.
Acting - This also goes back to Capaldi. Having him around seemed to elevate everyone's performance, especially Jenna Coleman. Their scene in the restaurant, and his final confrontation with Half-Face Man are some of the best acting I've seen in this series.
Pacing - Someone else on the forum felt the pacing was slow, I thought it was a welcome change from the rushed stories we've had recently. It seemed as if each seasons things got more manic, with Smith's final seasons feeling like a batch of two parters crammed into ones. If slowing things down gives us more one on one acting scenes like we had in this episode, then I'm all for it. The one exception to the pacing - the string of sequences involving Clara and the Paternoster Gang after The Doctor vanished. Much of that felt like stuff that would have been deleted if this had been just a regular episode.
THE BAD
The Paternoster Gang - I know, I know, most people love them. I've never been a big fan, but I like them fine. I'm just surprised that people don't see how badly they're being written with each successive story they appear in. If they're going to keep appearing, then we need more to them than "Strax is stupid" and "Vastra and Jenny are hot for each other." Strax contemplating self-sacrifice toward the end was a step in the right direction, but not enough to outweigh the over-the-top antics throughout the rest of the episode. As for Vastra and Jenny - pretend for a moment that Vastra is a man, and she and Jenny are a heterosexual couple. Replay those scenes in which she implies an attraction to Clara, or pretends to paint Jenny, or asks Clara to disrobe so she can paint her... you'd find that character rather one-dimensional and even a tad sleazy. I think it's awesome that Doctor Who has a same sex, interspecies couple on prime time television. I don't think it's a good thing that most of their dialogue revolves around their attraction for one another or any other attractive female they encounter, or how they look down on men. This story made it painfully obvious that when Moffatt thinks "lesbian", virtually all he can think about is "sex" and "man-hating". The characters deserve better.
Not Quite New Enough - Eleventh Hour did a great job of presenting the show for a whole new audience. Deep Breath... not so much. I liked the story, in many ways I think it's better than Smith's debut, but this played very heavily to current fans. Current fans love the Paternosters. My wife, who drifted away during much of Smith's final season, had no memory of who they were, and wanted to know why we were spending so much time with them. I imagine that new viewers might feel the same way. I liked the Smith cameo, but it also had the effect of drawing us back to what already happened, instead of looking to the future. I don't think I would have cut it - it's nice to see it done once, but I don't think they should do it again. Still, it might have been nice to see the new Doctor earn Clara's trust, instead of Smith guilt-tripping her into staying with him. I'm a little torn on that one.
THE STUPID
That awful sound effect when Vasta knocked The Doctor out. So cartoonish. It sounded bad enough on my TV at home. Hearing it echo out of speakers in a movie theater made it sound like something out of Looney Tunes.
The newspaper throw. I know, it gets a big laugh, and I probably wouldn't have completely cut it, but a simple fix that makes Clara look like less of an idiot, and in my opinion would have been funnier - have Clara turn her back to the window, only for the newspaper to smack her in the back of the head; cut to Strax down below smiling.
@Fade2Black I look forward to your prediction. I will definitely give it a listen. I know Romana has been thrown out there but that one seems very unlikely. A female Meddling Monk, maybe?
As much as I'd like to take credit for my co-host's brilliant theory, I got to give credit where credit is due. It was his theory, not mine. I'm merely embracing it on account of the theory being so solid.
I don't know if they've ever been called that in the show, but it's how I've seen them referred to in just about every article on them, even in the mainstream press, so I figured it wasn't too obscure.
I don't know if they've ever been called that in the show, but it's how I've seen them referred to in just about every article on them, even in the mainstream press, so I figured it wasn't too obscure.
I don't know if they've ever been called that in the show, but it's how I've seen them referred to in just about every article on them, even in the mainstream press, so I figured it wasn't too obscure.
Cool.
I was just curious.
I felt out of the loop.
I'm personally terrible about keeping track of the various nicknames and abbreviations geeks come up with for these things, so I sympathize. I try not to do it myself.
I don't know if they've ever been called that in the show, but it's how I've seen them referred to in just about every article on them, even in the mainstream press, so I figured it wasn't too obscure.
Cool.
I was just curious.
I felt out of the loop.
I'm personally terrible about keeping track of the various nicknames and abbreviations geeks come up with for these things, so I sympathize. I try not to do it myself.
I'm the opposite.
One of my goals is to create a catchphrase that enters general usage.
I don't know if they've ever been called that in the show, but it's how I've seen them referred to in just about every article on them, even in the mainstream press, so I figured it wasn't too obscure.
They are refered as the Paternoster Gang on screen in the prequel to the Christmas Special that introduced Clara.
I don't know if they've ever been called that in the show, but it's how I've seen them referred to in just about every article on them, even in the mainstream press, so I figured it wasn't too obscure.
They are refered as the Paternoster Gang on screen in the prequel to the Christmas Special that introduced Clara.
The time has arrived. Wanderers in the 4th Dimension (a Doctor Who podcast I'm a co-host on) has suspended our ongoing classic Doctor Who coverage in order to devote full coverage to the new Peter Capaldi era. Now might be a good time to lend Wanderers in the 4th Dimension an ear (or two). Plus, my co-host, Dave, has a really cool theory that might just answer the the question, "Who is Missy (Miss E.)?"
Our discussion and review of Deep Breath is now available for download on iTunes.
(Note: as of this posting, iTunes was just updated. It might take a little bit of time for the web links to reflect the new episode. The episode should, however, show as available within the iTunes application.)
That awful sound effect when Vasta knocked The Doctor out. So cartoonish. It sounded bad enough on my TV at home. Hearing it echo out of speakers in a movie theater made it sound like something out of Looney Tunes.
Thank GOD someone else mentioned it. I was beginning to think I was the only one bothered by this. And it wasn't just the sound effect when the Doctor got knocked out.
Some of the unnecessary sounds I noticed:
- The TARDIS...IDK, echoy thrum/bell(?)...when the Doctor passes out after being spit up by the Tyrannosaurus Rex. I get that...MAYBE, it could be tied to the Doctor and that, when the Doctor has any issues the TARDIS responds, but there was no other tie to it anywhere in the episode. Therefore it served no point.
- The cartoony sound you mentioned. My God what an awful decision. Why would you allow that in a debut episode where you're trying to get things perfect for an audience to accept the new Doctor? Why risk it for a cheap laugh?
- The car alarm for Vasta's carriage. WTF. NO purpose but cheap laughs. The T-Rex just died, they're trying to convey the Doctors despair over it and the beginning of the mystery for the episode, why even bother with this gag when trying to establish the seriousness of the moment?
Sweet! I Just found out about the Hola! Unblocker plugin for Firefox. Once installed, one can watch BBC iPlayer videos from overseas. And just as handy is the "get iPlayer Automater application" which then sends the videos straight to one's iTunes library for future viewing. Not that either of these Mac apps have anything to do with Doctor Who... Nope nothing to see here... move along.
very reminiscent of the Eccleston Dalek episode. Capaldi looked more comfortable in the role liked the "no, not like that" say please bit Not digging the Missy/Heaven subplot I like the new title sequence sort of. I'm not digging the music remix and wish the tardis was a less pristine blue. I think the Fan made version looked better
"I thought you were saving him" "he was already dead I was saving us" this is a brutally pragmatic Doctor
"I thought you were saving him" "he was already dead I was saving us" this is a brutally pragmatic Doctor
reminds me a bit of Pertwee
Wasn't Pertwee a little nicer, though? Deep down a softie? It's been quite a few years since I watched him, though I'm coming up on his era in my ongoing Classic Who marathon. My memory of him is as an angry teenager trapped in an older man's body (which makes sense, since he's essentially been grounded and sent to his room by the Time Lords). They're both not fond of soldiers, though. But Pertwee still worked with some for five years. This Doctor doesn't even want one joining his TARDIS crew.
Capaldi may be the first time we've had an older Doctor who acts like an older Doctor.
Comments
And, honestly, while I don't think it's out of line to have an affectionate same sex kiss on a show that's ostensibly geared for families, I can actually understand some people being a little unnerved by their young children watching a human and a Silurian open mouth kiss. It doesn't bother me personally, but if someone tells me it did bother them, my initial reaction isn't "You're a homophobe!", it's "Yeah, I guess it isn't something you see on TV every day."
The great majority of the fans seem to love the Vastra/Jenny relationship.
I'd be just as happy to have them and Strax as companions instead of Clara.
I saw the following headline:
"Doctor Who Got Ebola Dies Despite Experimental Drug Treatment"
And thought "What are Ebola Dies, and what did Doctor Who need them for?"
Links to our various Wanderers in the 4th Dimension social media as well as iTunes listings can be found on my tumblr. page.
SPOILERS
THE GOOD
Capaldi - Exactly what I wanted in the next Doctor. We've had two great younger Doctors (okay, Tennant was actually pushing 40, but he looked and played younger), I enjoyed them both, but seeing them up against John Hurt in the 50th highlighted sameness in their approach to their role, and showed us what we were missing in not changing things up. We didn't have as memorable of an "I'm The Doctor" moment like we had with Smith, but I still got a strong sense of what this Doctor is going to be like.
Acting - This also goes back to Capaldi. Having him around seemed to elevate everyone's performance, especially Jenna Coleman. Their scene in the restaurant, and his final confrontation with Half-Face Man are some of the best acting I've seen in this series.
Pacing - Someone else on the forum felt the pacing was slow, I thought it was a welcome change from the rushed stories we've had recently. It seemed as if each seasons things got more manic, with Smith's final seasons feeling like a batch of two parters crammed into ones. If slowing things down gives us more one on one acting scenes like we had in this episode, then I'm all for it. The one exception to the pacing - the string of sequences involving Clara and the Paternoster Gang after The Doctor vanished. Much of that felt like stuff that would have been deleted if this had been just a regular episode.
THE BAD
The Paternoster Gang - I know, I know, most people love them. I've never been a big fan, but I like them fine. I'm just surprised that people don't see how badly they're being written with each successive story they appear in. If they're going to keep appearing, then we need more to them than "Strax is stupid" and "Vastra and Jenny are hot for each other." Strax contemplating self-sacrifice toward the end was a step in the right direction, but not enough to outweigh the over-the-top antics throughout the rest of the episode. As for Vastra and Jenny - pretend for a moment that Vastra is a man, and she and Jenny are a heterosexual couple. Replay those scenes in which she implies an attraction to Clara, or pretends to paint Jenny, or asks Clara to disrobe so she can paint her... you'd find that character rather one-dimensional and even a tad sleazy. I think it's awesome that Doctor Who has a same sex, interspecies couple on prime time television. I don't think it's a good thing that most of their dialogue revolves around their attraction for one another or any other attractive female they encounter, or how they look down on men. This story made it painfully obvious that when Moffatt thinks "lesbian", virtually all he can think about is "sex" and "man-hating". The characters deserve better.
Not Quite New Enough - Eleventh Hour did a great job of presenting the show for a whole new audience. Deep Breath... not so much. I liked the story, in many ways I think it's better than Smith's debut, but this played very heavily to current fans. Current fans love the Paternosters. My wife, who drifted away during much of Smith's final season, had no memory of who they were, and wanted to know why we were spending so much time with them. I imagine that new viewers might feel the same way. I liked the Smith cameo, but it also had the effect of drawing us back to what already happened, instead of looking to the future. I don't think I would have cut it - it's nice to see it done once, but I don't think they should do it again. Still, it might have been nice to see the new Doctor earn Clara's trust, instead of Smith guilt-tripping her into staying with him. I'm a little torn on that one.
THE STUPID
That awful sound effect when Vasta knocked The Doctor out. So cartoonish. It sounded bad enough on my TV at home. Hearing it echo out of speakers in a movie theater made it sound like something out of Looney Tunes.
The newspaper throw. I know, it gets a big laugh, and I probably wouldn't have completely cut it, but a simple fix that makes Clara look like less of an idiot, and in my opinion would have been funnier - have Clara turn her back to the window, only for the newspaper to smack her in the back of the head; cut to Strax down below smiling.
When were they called that?
I think it was mentioned in one of the series 7 webisodes?
I redecorated.
I hope you like it.
I was just curious.
I felt out of the loop.
One of my goals is to create a catchphrase that enters general usage.
I came close with Pure Comic-y Goodness.
Is that a webisode?
A comic?
A book?
The time has arrived.
Wanderers in the 4th Dimension (a Doctor Who podcast I'm a co-host on) has suspended our ongoing classic Doctor Who coverage in order to devote full coverage to the new Peter Capaldi era. Now might be a good time to lend Wanderers in the 4th Dimension an ear (or two). Plus, my co-host, Dave, has a really cool theory that might just answer the the question, "Who is Missy (Miss E.)?"
Our discussion and review of Deep Breath is now available for download on iTunes.
subscribe on iTunes U.S.
subscribe on iTunes U.K.
http://www.wanderin4d.com/
Wit4D on Facebook
(Note: as of this posting, iTunes was just updated. It might take a little bit of time for the web links to reflect the new episode. The episode should, however, show as available within the iTunes application.)
Some of the unnecessary sounds I noticed:
- The TARDIS...IDK, echoy thrum/bell(?)...when the Doctor passes out after being spit up by the Tyrannosaurus Rex. I get that...MAYBE, it could be tied to the Doctor and that, when the Doctor has any issues the TARDIS responds, but there was no other tie to it anywhere in the episode. Therefore it served no point.
- The cartoony sound you mentioned. My God what an awful decision. Why would you allow that in a debut episode where you're trying to get things perfect for an audience to accept the new Doctor? Why risk it for a cheap laugh?
- The car alarm for Vasta's carriage. WTF. NO purpose but cheap laughs. The T-Rex just died, they're trying to convey the Doctors despair over it and the beginning of the mystery for the episode, why even bother with this gag when trying to establish the seriousness of the moment?
SPOILERS Maybe
very reminiscent of the Eccleston Dalek episode.
Capaldi looked more comfortable in the role
liked the "no, not like that" say please bit
Not digging the Missy/Heaven subplot
I like the new title sequence sort of. I'm not digging the music remix and wish the tardis was a less pristine blue. I think the Fan made version looked better
"I thought you were saving him"
"he was already dead I was saving us"
this is a brutally pragmatic Doctor
reminds me a bit of Pertwee
Capaldi may be the first time we've had an older Doctor who acts like an older Doctor.