I've never found the show to be strong on science. That's part of what drew me to it as a kid, because it wasn't weighed down with all the rules and science talk the way something like Star Trek was. Even during the Pertwee era, where he was supposed to be a science adviser coming up with gadgets to save the earth, most of the science felt like made-up nonsense.
Just last week I watched a Troughton episode in which the earth freezes over because of the breakdown of the ozone layer. Even then, scientists knew that was pretty much the opposite of what would happen. The script even went so far as to say the breakdown happened because they'd destroyed too many plants, resulting in not enough carbon dioxide in the air. Unless future earth plants have mutated and started pumping out CO2, that's once again pretty much the opposite of what would happen.
Kill The Moon single-handedly killed any storytelling credibility the show ever had. It had more sixth-grade science inaccuracies than Superman IV. I really want to like this season, but I can't overlook the schlock. It was written on the level of a bad 1930's sci fi comic, with weird unexplained plot points, and bad characterizations. I know some of you guys are enjoying this season, but I just can't get past the decrease in quality. Even the music has taken a downturn. It was downright distracting.
If you're looking for accuracte science from Doctor Who you are looking in the wrong place. This isn't and never has been a "hard sci-fi" show. This is a fantasy/adventure show loosly disguised as sci-fi. Matt Smith's era embraced that quite a bit more boldly with the whole "madman in a box" and fairy tale elements but they were just saying out loud what has always been the case.
The moon as an egg is not about the science It is just an excuse to put humanity in the position of making a horrible choice. Having the Doctor bug out and leave it to the humans to decide their own path was the point of the story. This is an extremely character heavy story that highlights the alien-ness of the Doctor. Clara sees him as inhumane. He sees himself as respectful. The Doctor is not human and shouldn't be expected to have the same moral and cultural touchstones that "we" have. This isn't Mr. Wizard. The "science" isn't important. In the same way that in the Walking Dead the zombies aren't "important" they are just setting. They are an excuse to put a small group of people under intense pressure and turn up the heat. The drama comes from the people interactions not the zombies.
I'm sorry, but when the Doctor started testing the gravity, and offered the explanation that the moon's gravity was changing because the mass was increasing, and it was increasing because the embryo was getting bigger from eating the moon, they made it about science.
I've never found the show to be strong on science. That's part of what drew me to it as a kid, because it wasn't weighed down with all the rules and science talk the way something like Star Trek was. Even during the Pertwee era, where he was supposed to be a science adviser coming up with gadgets to save the earth, most of the science felt like made-up nonsense.
Just last week I watched a Troughton episode in which the earth freezes over because of the breakdown of the ozone layer. Even then, scientists knew that was pretty much the opposite of what would happen. The script even went so far as to say the breakdown happened because they'd destroyed too many plants, resulting in not enough carbon dioxide in the air. Unless future earth plants have mutated and started pumping out CO2, that's once again pretty much the opposite of what would happen.
So, yeah, the science has always been bad.
Actually, to this day, there are differing camps as to what would happen given those circumstances. Remember "Nuclear Winter"?
That's why "global warming" has now been rebranded as "climate change".
Kill The Moon single-handedly killed any storytelling credibility the show ever had. It had more sixth-grade science inaccuracies than Superman IV. I really want to like this season, but I can't overlook the schlock. It was written on the level of a bad 1930's sci fi comic, with weird unexplained plot points, and bad characterizations. I know some of you guys are enjoying this season, but I just can't get past the decrease in quality. Even the music has taken a downturn. It was downright distracting.
If you're looking for accuracte science from Doctor Who you are looking in the wrong place. This isn't and never has been a "hard sci-fi" show. This is a fantasy/adventure show loosly disguised as sci-fi. Matt Smith's era embraced that quite a bit more boldly with the whole "madman in a box" and fairy tale elements but they were just saying out loud what has always been the case.
The moon as an egg is not about the science It is just an excuse to put humanity in the position of making a horrible choice. Having the Doctor bug out and leave it to the humans to decide their own path was the point of the story. This is an extremely character heavy story that highlights the alien-ness of the Doctor. Clara sees him as inhumane. He sees himself as respectful. The Doctor is not human and shouldn't be expected to have the same moral and cultural touchstones that "we" have. This isn't Mr. Wizard. The "science" isn't important. In the same way that in the Walking Dead the zombies aren't "important" they are just setting. They are an excuse to put a small group of people under intense pressure and turn up the heat. The drama comes from the people interactions not the zombies.
I'm sorry, but when the Doctor started testing the gravity, and offered the explanation that the moon's gravity was changing because the mass was increasing, and it was increasing because the embryo was getting bigger from eating the moon, they made it about science.
Or at least logic.
don't get me wrong I want a show to be at least somewhat internally consistent and I absolutely see where you're coming from but Doctor Who, and certainly Doctor Who under Moffett's supervision, is more magic than science.
I have to say that complaining about poor science facts on a science fiction show is the height of ridiculousness. I fondly recall hearing "Reverse the polarity of the neutron flow" and laughing. A narrative point like the Doctor testing the gravity on last episode does not mean that Doctor Who should be accurate in it's depiction of science. I have to ask Tonebone, what Doctor Who have you been watching? I have always found it to be infused with bad science. Or made up science. The whole premises and execution is predicated on bad science. Maybe you like the harder, accurate version of sci-fi out there but to expect Doctor Who to do it, IMO, misses the point almost completely.
I've never found the show to be strong on science. That's part of what drew me to it as a kid, because it wasn't weighed down with all the rules and science talk the way something like Star Trek was. Even during the Pertwee era, where he was supposed to be a science adviser coming up with gadgets to save the earth, most of the science felt like made-up nonsense.
Just last week I watched a Troughton episode in which the earth freezes over because of the breakdown of the ozone layer. Even then, scientists knew that was pretty much the opposite of what would happen. The script even went so far as to say the breakdown happened because they'd destroyed too many plants, resulting in not enough carbon dioxide in the air. Unless future earth plants have mutated and started pumping out CO2, that's once again pretty much the opposite of what would happen.
So, yeah, the science has always been bad.
Actually, to this day, there are differing camps as to what would happen given those circumstances. Remember "Nuclear Winter"?
That's why "global warming" has now been rebranded as "climate change".
Granted, but even as a kid I learned that plants take in carbon dioxide (for the most part, apparently they do expel some of it back), so destroying them certainly wouldn't result in a shortage of carbon dioxide.
A few stories before that one, we get a Victorian era scientist inventing a time machine that works by using numerous mirrors sending people through time by sending their reflection through time. As if your reflection is the same thing as you.
And as for bad moon science - in The Moonbase, a rupture in a space station is fixed by... a tea tray being sucked over and covering the hole. I suppose we shouldn't be surprised that it's so simple to fix, since earlier in the story we learned that the Cybermen had been sneaking on an off the base by cutting a hole in a wall.
Amazingly, the Troughton era is supposedly when it was being produced by science nerds, who often brought on science consultants to ensure the show's accuracy. The funny thing is, they get little details right, like spray bottles not working outside a moon station because there's no oxygen, but then they go and do something completely bonkers in the same story.
If we tried to pick out every blatantly ridiculous "science" issue in Doctor Who from 1963-present. well, a) We'd be even nerdier than I thought and b) We'd all die of old age before we got through Baker. The first Baker.
Incidentally, Patrick Troughton played the Priest that gets impaled by the church spire in The Omen. The original with Gregory Peck.
If we tried to pick out every blatantly ridiculous "science" issue in Doctor Who from 1963-present. well, a) We'd be even nerdier than I thought and b) We'd all die of old age before we got through Baker. The first Baker.
Incidentally, Patrick Troughton played the Priest that gets impaled by the church spire in The Omen. The original with Gregory Peck.
I'm just picking on the Troughton era because I'm currently in the middle of his second season. Even by Doctor Who standards, the science has been particularly crazy during this stretch. It sticks out like a sore thumb because at the same time the show is transitioning itself into a science-based action show.
I remember as a kid watching the Omen and thinking it was probably the only time, back then anyway, that I'd actually seen one of the Doctors playing something other than the Doctor. We didn't get to see that much in the US. There was Tom Baker in Sinbad (and according to IMDB, an episode of Remington Steele, which I know I watched, but until I looked it up just now, couldn't have told you what '80s crime show it had been), but that was about it.
I saw Troughton in Jason and the Argonauts not long ago. Had no idea it was him all these years.
If we tried to pick out every blatantly ridiculous "science" issue in Doctor Who from 1963-present. well, a) We'd be even nerdier than I thought and b) We'd all die of old age before we got through Baker. The first Baker.
Incidentally, Patrick Troughton played the Priest that gets impaled by the church spire in The Omen. The original with Gregory Peck.
I'm just picking on the Troughton era because I'm currently in the middle of his second season. Even by Doctor Who standards, the science has been particularly crazy during this stretch. It sticks out like a sore thumb because at the same time the show is transitioning itself into a science-based action show.
I remember as a kid watching the Omen and thinking it was probably the only time, back then anyway, that I'd actually seen one of the Doctors playing something other than the Doctor. We didn't get to see that much in the US. There was Tom Baker in Sinbad (and according to IMDB, an episode of Remington Steele, which I know I watched, but until I looked it up just now, couldn't have told you what '80s crime show it had been), but that was about it.
I saw Troughton in Jason and the Argonauts not long ago. Had no idea it was him all these years.
I saw a pre Dr Who Matt Smith make an appearance in Billie Pipers TV series A Secret Diary of a Call girl. The Dr and Rose come together again!
I have to say that complaining about poor science facts on a science fiction show is the height of ridiculousness. I fondly recall hearing "Reverse the polarity of the neutron flow" and laughing. A narrative point like the Doctor testing the gravity on last episode does not mean that Doctor Who should be accurate in it's depiction of science. I have to ask Tonebone, what Doctor Who have you been watching? I have always found it to be infused with bad science. Or made up science. The whole premises and execution is predicated on bad science. Maybe you like the harder, accurate version of sci-fi out there but to expect Doctor Who to do it, IMO, misses the point almost completely.
I disagree. Science fiction is comprised of two parts, "science" and "fiction". The best sci-fi is that which incorporates both. Fiction that's grounded in science lends credence to a genre that requires the viewer/reader to accept an element that isn't grounded in reality. For instance, the Kill the Moon episode presents the moon as an egg. I like that notion, and I have no qualms about suspending just about all that I know about the moon to accept that its an egg. When the show introduced large "prokaryotic" germs that are feeding on the egg's amniotic fluid, I was okay with that too, at least as a concept. The execution, on the other hand, was downright inexcusable. When single-celled "germs" have mandibles, eight legs, and spin webs, they're not prokaryotes, they're arachnids. There was no reason for these creatures to resemble spiders other than to add an element of scariness to the episode. If this episode had given us creatures that resembled really large prokaryotes, I would have bought into the explanation, just as I had done with the moon is an egg concept, but by calling them one thing and giving us something else entirely, the writers made it much harder for me to accept their already implausible explanation. Of course, sci-fi isn't about adhering to science, but the parts we're expected to take on faith, work best when they're embedded in facts.
To each their own I suppose but I still find it absurd to call out a particular Doctor Who episode on bad science and let the TARDIS and regeneration and sonic screwdriver and Alternative Universes and mobile killer statues and time travel and Stones of Blood and E space and YOU NAME IT slide. Please don't cherry pick each and explain it to me, I don't want my childhood illusions shattered.
I'm just amazed that with all the crazy science over the years, this is the Doctor Who episode that brings about so much debate. Even disregarding Classic Who, this was far from the craziest thing I've seen on the show.
If someone's upset over gravity on the moon being handled incorrectly, or prokaryotes not looking like prokaryotes, their heads must have exploded when a creature hatched from the moon and proceeded to lay an egg larger than itself.
(potential spoilers for just about any series 8 episode to date)
Here’s the full-length video for Foxes’ rendition of Don’t Stop Me Now that was partially featured on this weekend’s Doctor Who episode, Mummy on the Orient Express
(potential spoilers for just about any series 8 episode to date)
Here’s the full-length video for Foxes’ rendition of Don’t Stop Me Now that was partially featured on this weekend’s Doctor Who episode, Mummy on the Orient Express
I can't bring the article up to read (my fault, not the links - my work internet is touchy and sometimes tells me web pages aren't available for no reason), but I would hope that even Moffat realizes by now that they need to do something different for the next companion. I almost felt like Time Heist was a bit of a trial run for pairing the Doctor with someone different. The story arcs of both of those characters could have easily been stretched out to a season or two. Not every companion has to be a contemporary young woman with a variety of issues. A half-human/half-computer trying to regain his memory would make for a nice change of pace, with a built-in reason for them to exit when the time came.
Moffat has said before that Clara was almost from a different time. I'm guessing the Victorian Clara would have been the companion - they certainly did a better job of building up her character than they did the real Clara when she finally arrived. They chickened out in the end, though.
Capaldi's Doctor reminds me a little of Tom Baker's, and after Sarah Jane he had nothing but futuristic, alien companions. The Sarah Jane era is probably still the classic Baker era, but the other four seasons were fine as well (and what problems they had were due more to writing and a lead actor having a little too much power, not choice in companion).
Does anyone else think the mysterious Gus will be turning up again? I'm trying to think of things that might be an acronym for, but with no luck.
I keep waiting for a dud episode, and we still haven't had one. I can't recall a season this solid, even from the Classic era. There's always at least one that doesn't work.
I'm hoping the big finale doesn't turn out to be a flop. I don't know enough about Missy and the Promised Land to even guess if it's going to be any good or not.
I think the reason 10 and 11 became so popular with the broader audience is because they more or less turned the Doctor into a Manic Pixie Dream Boy. Or perhaps I should say a Manic Pixie Dream Boy with a twist of Bad Boy.
And that plays into the empowerment of the companions, who act as the gateway for the audience. The more the companions can help the Doctor, the more we think we could help the Doctor—our Manic Pixie Dream Boy who so selflessly helps others—in their place. It kind of feeds into itself.
I dunno. Just a thought I had.
Interesting.
I wonder how the bowtie & fez brigade are reacting to this season.
The ones I know think that this Doctor and are threatening to quit watching. "The Doctor was never this mean before!"
No, but the first Doctor did threaten to throw his companions out the next place he stopped, which happened to be the French Revolution. In very many ways, he's a callback to the first Doctor...and I like him for that.
I think the reason 10 and 11 became so popular with the broader audience is because they more or less turned the Doctor into a Manic Pixie Dream Boy. Or perhaps I should say a Manic Pixie Dream Boy with a twist of Bad Boy.
And that plays into the empowerment of the companions, who act as the gateway for the audience. The more the companions can help the Doctor, the more we think we could help the Doctor—our Manic Pixie Dream Boy who so selflessly helps others—in their place. It kind of feeds into itself.
I dunno. Just a thought I had.
Interesting.
I wonder how the bowtie & fez brigade are reacting to this season.
The ones I know think that this Doctor and are threatening to quit watching. "The Doctor was never this mean before!"
No, but the first Doctor did threaten to throw his companions out the next place he stopped, which happened to be the French Revolution. In very many ways, he's a callback to the first Doctor...and I like him for that.
As much as I like this Doctor, and he's already up there with my all-time favorites, I do think they're right at the edge for how harsh they can make him and keep him as a heroic lead. Last night's episode did some needed damage control in confirming that he still does his best to save lives. That hasn't always been apparent in recent episodes.
It's sort of Colin Baker done right. Six was not only mean, but bughouse nuts and often not even particularly effective in the story at hand. They've been careful to handle this version more carefully. An actor of Capaldi's skill helps immeasurably, too.
That they're threatening to quit, but not actually quitting, tells me the show's doing something right. There must be something compelling them to stick around. I know plenty of people who stopped watching during Smith's last season not because they were upset, but because they were bored, something far worse than getting people upset or riled up about your program.
Does anyone else think the mysterious Gus will be turning up again? I'm trying to think of things that might be an acronym for, but with no luck.
Yes.
I expect to see Gus again, as well as the engineer.
Speaking of mysterious, semi-cryptic characters. I kept waiting for some follow-up on the DreamMaster/Dream Lord character from the Matt Smith episode Amy's Choice. What was up with that Valyard inspired cat?
Does anyone else think the mysterious Gus will be turning up again? I'm trying to think of things that might be an acronym for, but with no luck.
Yes.
I expect to see Gus again, as well as the engineer.
Apparently my attention levels weren't so great during this episode, because it never dawned on me that there might be a connection between the two. I even somehow missed the segment with Capaldi talking to himself by imitating past Doctors.
Comments
Just last week I watched a Troughton episode in which the earth freezes over because of the breakdown of the ozone layer. Even then, scientists knew that was pretty much the opposite of what would happen. The script even went so far as to say the breakdown happened because they'd destroyed too many plants, resulting in not enough carbon dioxide in the air. Unless future earth plants have mutated and started pumping out CO2, that's once again pretty much the opposite of what would happen.
So, yeah, the science has always been bad.
Or at least logic.
That's why "global warming" has now been rebranded as "climate change".
A few stories before that one, we get a Victorian era scientist inventing a time machine that works by using numerous mirrors sending people through time by sending their reflection through time. As if your reflection is the same thing as you.
And as for bad moon science - in The Moonbase, a rupture in a space station is fixed by... a tea tray being sucked over and covering the hole. I suppose we shouldn't be surprised that it's so simple to fix, since earlier in the story we learned that the Cybermen had been sneaking on an off the base by cutting a hole in a wall.
Amazingly, the Troughton era is supposedly when it was being produced by science nerds, who often brought on science consultants to ensure the show's accuracy. The funny thing is, they get little details right, like spray bottles not working outside a moon station because there's no oxygen, but then they go and do something completely bonkers in the same story.
Incidentally, Patrick Troughton played the Priest that gets impaled by the church spire in The Omen. The original with Gregory Peck.
I remember as a kid watching the Omen and thinking it was probably the only time, back then anyway, that I'd actually seen one of the Doctors playing something other than the Doctor. We didn't get to see that much in the US. There was Tom Baker in Sinbad (and according to IMDB, an episode of Remington Steele, which I know I watched, but until I looked it up just now, couldn't have told you what '80s crime show it had been), but that was about it.
I saw Troughton in Jason and the Argonauts not long ago. Had no idea it was him all these years.
If someone's upset over gravity on the moon being handled incorrectly, or prokaryotes not looking like prokaryotes, their heads must have exploded when a creature hatched from the moon and proceeded to lay an egg larger than itself.
Here’s the full-length video for Foxes’ rendition of Don’t Stop Me Now that was partially featured on this weekend’s Doctor Who episode, Mummy on the Orient Express
Another great episode.
So many brilliant lines.
I'd like to hear a better singer use it.
Moffat has said before that Clara was almost from a different time. I'm guessing the Victorian Clara would have been the companion - they certainly did a better job of building up her character than they did the real Clara when she finally arrived. They chickened out in the end, though.
Capaldi's Doctor reminds me a little of Tom Baker's, and after Sarah Jane he had nothing but futuristic, alien companions. The Sarah Jane era is probably still the classic Baker era, but the other four seasons were fine as well (and what problems they had were due more to writing and a lead actor having a little too much power, not choice in companion).
I keep waiting for a dud episode, and we still haven't had one. I can't recall a season this solid, even from the Classic era. There's always at least one that doesn't work.
I'm hoping the big finale doesn't turn out to be a flop. I don't know enough about Missy and the Promised Land to even guess if it's going to be any good or not.
No, but the first Doctor did threaten to throw his companions out the next place he stopped, which happened to be the French Revolution. In very many ways, he's a callback to the first Doctor...and I like him for that.
It's sort of Colin Baker done right. Six was not only mean, but bughouse nuts and often not even particularly effective in the story at hand. They've been careful to handle this version more carefully. An actor of Capaldi's skill helps immeasurably, too.
That they're threatening to quit, but not actually quitting, tells me the show's doing something right. There must be something compelling them to stick around. I know plenty of people who stopped watching during Smith's last season not because they were upset, but because they were bored, something far worse than getting people upset or riled up about your program.
I expect to see Gus again, as well as the engineer.
That line had the effect of making me fall out of my chair and pissing my wife off.
It is set 10 years after Kill the Moon.
Seems like the Mars expedition would have to have been begun immediately after the Mon hatched.
tardis.wikia.com/wiki/The_Moon
(Oh, my!)
I actually scrolled back on my DVR because I couldn't believe he'd said that. Never occurred to me that it was a subtitle error.
There were actually a lot of minor ones throughout that episode.