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The Doctor WHO Thread (Please indicate potential spoilers when discussing current episodes.)

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    Fade2BlackFade2Black Posts: 1,457
    Official BBC promo image.

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    ***********SPOILERS************

    Ugh. Just watched the season premiere.

    Cons: Fifteen minutes of (weak) story told over an hour and 15 minutes. Davros gets "Anakin'd" (always a great way to strengthen the impact of a bad-guy). Capaldi, once again, put into a silly situation to make him seem young and vibrant - doesn't work. Apparently, the budget was blown on a tank, and they had to film a scene at Midieval Times. Missy, whom I hate, chews up the scenery. Clara, whom I am completely indifferent to, continues to blend in to the woodwork.

    Pros: Clara and Missy disintegrated. Adult Davros. Daleks.

    I didn't watch most of last season. Just couldn't take it. I am guessing I missed a lot of Capaldi pondering his face, Clara trying to emote, and aliens that don't move/grow/kill you when they are not seen/thought about/remembered, etc. I bowed out after the moon hatched a moth... and now I'm out again.

    Sorry to be a downer... at least I still have the Baker/Tennant/Smith episodes...
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    WetRatsWetRats Posts: 6,314
    I adore Missy.

    I quite enjoyed everything @Tonebone loathed.

    But, as said before, I'm one of those Whoie-come-latelies.
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    chriswchrisw Posts: 792
    WetRats said:

    I adore Missy.

    I quite enjoyed everything @Tonebone loathed.

    But, as said before, I'm one of those Whoie-come-latelies.

    Same here. It did suffer a little from that first part of a two parter thing where the story falls into a holding pattern until we get to the cliffhanger, and things get moving in part two. And it has the type of cliffhanger I find annoying, where we know very well that everything we've seen happen will be reversed next week.

    But otherwise, I thought it was a strong episode, and Capaldi seems to have found his groove with the character. The one-note, rude and callous Doctor of Deep Breath and Into The Dalek is gone. I actually enjoyed that at the time, but what we're getting now is much more layered and nuanced. I think a lot of actors could have pulled off what he was doing in those early episodes. I don't think any other actor could quite deliver what he's giving us now.

    And chewing up the scenery is pretty much what The Master/Missy does. Heck, she's still more subtle than Anthony Ainley.

    And I consider Clara to be the Sarah Jane Smith of New Who, so I'm always going to be biased in that regard.
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    WetRatsWetRats Posts: 6,314
    chrisw said:

    And I consider Clara to be the Sarah Jane Smith of New Who, so I'm always going to be biased in that regard.

    Is that a good thing? I only know her from her appearances in the new series.
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    chriswchrisw Posts: 792
    WetRats said:

    chrisw said:

    And I consider Clara to be the Sarah Jane Smith of New Who, so I'm always going to be biased in that regard.

    Is that a good thing? I only know her from her appearances in the new series.
    It's a good thing.

    I don't get why so many dislike her.

    Sarah Jane started as about the only good thing about the Third Doctor's final season, then came out of that to flourish alongside Tom Baker. I just started re-watching her era last week, and I see a lot of similarities. I thought Clara showed a lot of promise that for some reason didn't come across under Matt Smith, but I think her chemistry with Capaldi has been excellent. I think she was a little dragged down by the Danny Pink storyline (didn't think it at the time, but on a second viewing, I think it sells her character short a little to have her so attached to him that she would flirt with dying herself not once but twice) so I'm looking forward to seeing a Clara who throws herself headlong into traveling with The Doctor.
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    WetRatsWetRats Posts: 6,314
    chrisw said:

    WetRats said:

    chrisw said:

    And I consider Clara to be the Sarah Jane Smith of New Who, so I'm always going to be biased in that regard.

    Is that a good thing? I only know her from her appearances in the new series.
    It's a good thing.

    I don't get why so many dislike her.

    Sarah Jane started as about the only good thing about the Third Doctor's final season, then came out of that to flourish alongside Tom Baker. I just started re-watching her era last week, and I see a lot of similarities. I thought Clara showed a lot of promise that for some reason didn't come across under Matt Smith, but I think her chemistry with Capaldi has been excellent. I think she was a little dragged down by the Danny Pink storyline (didn't think it at the time, but on a second viewing, I think it sells her character short a little to have her so attached to him that she would flirt with dying herself not once but twice) so I'm looking forward to seeing a Clara who throws herself headlong into traveling with The Doctor.
    Cool.

    I really liked Danny Pink. It was nice to have a character on the show who acknowledged what an asshole The Doctor can be. I thought he was far too good for Clara. (Which is not to say I dislike her, again, I found the essentially shabby way she treated him quite believable, and the storyline of her having to choose between a truly good man and the Most Exciting Man in the Universe quite deep and moving.)
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    rebisrebis Posts: 1,820
    WetRats said:

    chrisw said:

    WetRats said:

    chrisw said:

    And I consider Clara to be the Sarah Jane Smith of New Who, so I'm always going to be biased in that regard.

    Is that a good thing? I only know her from her appearances in the new series.
    It's a good thing.

    I don't get why so many dislike her.

    Sarah Jane started as about the only good thing about the Third Doctor's final season, then came out of that to flourish alongside Tom Baker. I just started re-watching her era last week, and I see a lot of similarities. I thought Clara showed a lot of promise that for some reason didn't come across under Matt Smith, but I think her chemistry with Capaldi has been excellent. I think she was a little dragged down by the Danny Pink storyline (didn't think it at the time, but on a second viewing, I think it sells her character short a little to have her so attached to him that she would flirt with dying herself not once but twice) so I'm looking forward to seeing a Clara who throws herself headlong into traveling with The Doctor.
    Cool.

    I really liked Danny Pink. It was nice to have a character on the show who acknowledged what an asshole The Doctor can be. I thought he was far too good for Clara. (Which is not to say I dislike her, again, I found the essentially shabby way she treated him quite believable, and the storyline of her having to choose between a truly good man and the Most Exciting Man in the Universe quite deep and moving.)
    Very well said.
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    chriswchrisw Posts: 792
    I continually go back and forth on Danny Pink. I liked that the show tried something more human for once, and extended it through the entire season. But the relationship often brought out the worst in both characters. Maybe that was the intent. I was always a little bothered by Danny's insistence that Clara stop traveling with The Doctor, as it turned him from a nice guy to someone a little too controlling (some would even say mentally abusive, but I think that's an exaggeration). Clara felt simultaneously devious and obsessive. Even The Doctor's constant insulting of Danny felt odd. It was like this weird relationship that made each of them seem a little less.

    I'm all for character flaws, but when they're all caused by the presence of one character whose not serving much of a purpose other than creating those flaws, I think it's time to cut that character loose.

    And in the Christmas Special, when "Danny" says he didn't do what he did in Death In Heaven for Earth but for Clara, it was just strange. If that's really Danny in that dream, then he sounds rather dickish. If it's all Clara's imagination, then she sounds rather egocentric. The whole relationship just turned weird by the end. I enjoyed it for most of that season, but I'm glad it's not bogging things down now.
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    WetRatsWetRats Posts: 6,314
    chrisw said:

    I continually go back and forth on Danny Pink. I liked that the show tried something more human for once, and extended it through the entire season. But the relationship often brought out the worst in both characters. Maybe that was the intent. I was always a little bothered by Danny's insistence that Clara stop traveling with The Doctor, as it turned him from a nice guy to someone a little too controlling (some would even say mentally abusive, but I think that's an exaggeration). Clara felt simultaneously devious and obsessive. Even The Doctor's constant insulting of Danny felt odd. It was like this weird relationship that made each of them seem a little less.

    I'm all for character flaws, but when they're all caused by the presence of one character whose not serving much of a purpose other than creating those flaws, I think it's time to cut that character loose.

    And in the Christmas Special, when "Danny" says he didn't do what he did in Death In Heaven for Earth but for Clara, it was just strange. If that's really Danny in that dream, then he sounds rather dickish. If it's all Clara's imagination, then she sounds rather egocentric. The whole relationship just turned weird by the end. I enjoyed it for most of that season, but I'm glad it's not bogging things down now.

    All those ugly, messy aspects to the three-way relationship are exactly what engaged me. It was a nice change-up from Amy & Rory's almost too-perfect epic love story.
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    chriswchrisw Posts: 792
    WetRats said:

    chrisw said:

    I continually go back and forth on Danny Pink. I liked that the show tried something more human for once, and extended it through the entire season. But the relationship often brought out the worst in both characters. Maybe that was the intent. I was always a little bothered by Danny's insistence that Clara stop traveling with The Doctor, as it turned him from a nice guy to someone a little too controlling (some would even say mentally abusive, but I think that's an exaggeration). Clara felt simultaneously devious and obsessive. Even The Doctor's constant insulting of Danny felt odd. It was like this weird relationship that made each of them seem a little less.

    I'm all for character flaws, but when they're all caused by the presence of one character whose not serving much of a purpose other than creating those flaws, I think it's time to cut that character loose.

    And in the Christmas Special, when "Danny" says he didn't do what he did in Death In Heaven for Earth but for Clara, it was just strange. If that's really Danny in that dream, then he sounds rather dickish. If it's all Clara's imagination, then she sounds rather egocentric. The whole relationship just turned weird by the end. I enjoyed it for most of that season, but I'm glad it's not bogging things down now.

    All those ugly, messy aspects to the three-way relationship are exactly what engaged me. It was a nice change-up from Amy & Rory's almost too-perfect epic love story.
    Yeah, that's why I'm still a little undecided about it. It certainly didn't ruin the season for me. It's just not something I need to see repeated or prolonged.

    And I tend to view Amy as a similarly toxic character. I think on her own, she started out fine, but throw Rory into the mix and she often comes across as selfish and manipulative. Typically a love affair softens a character. For her, it had the opposite effect.

    Maybe I just don't find Doctor Who well-suited for relationship drama.
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    RedRight88RedRight88 Posts: 2,207
    Do you think that more people would like Clara if they saw that topless scene Jenna Coleman did?
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    chriswchrisw Posts: 792

    Do you think that more people would like Clara if they saw that topless scene Jenna Coleman did?

    I think I'll have to do extensive research on that and get back to you.
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    WetRatsWetRats Posts: 6,314
    chrisw said:

    WetRats said:

    chrisw said:

    I continually go back and forth on Danny Pink. I liked that the show tried something more human for once, and extended it through the entire season. But the relationship often brought out the worst in both characters. Maybe that was the intent. I was always a little bothered by Danny's insistence that Clara stop traveling with The Doctor, as it turned him from a nice guy to someone a little too controlling (some would even say mentally abusive, but I think that's an exaggeration). Clara felt simultaneously devious and obsessive. Even The Doctor's constant insulting of Danny felt odd. It was like this weird relationship that made each of them seem a little less.

    I'm all for character flaws, but when they're all caused by the presence of one character whose not serving much of a purpose other than creating those flaws, I think it's time to cut that character loose.

    And in the Christmas Special, when "Danny" says he didn't do what he did in Death In Heaven for Earth but for Clara, it was just strange. If that's really Danny in that dream, then he sounds rather dickish. If it's all Clara's imagination, then she sounds rather egocentric. The whole relationship just turned weird by the end. I enjoyed it for most of that season, but I'm glad it's not bogging things down now.

    All those ugly, messy aspects to the three-way relationship are exactly what engaged me. It was a nice change-up from Amy & Rory's almost too-perfect epic love story.
    Yeah, that's why I'm still a little undecided about it. It certainly didn't ruin the season for me. It's just not something I need to see repeated or prolonged.

    And I tend to view Amy as a similarly toxic character. I think on her own, she started out fine, but throw Rory into the mix and she often comes across as selfish and manipulative. Typically a love affair softens a character. For her, it had the opposite effect.

    Maybe I just don't find Doctor Who well-suited for relationship drama.
    The relationship drama is a big part of what has made it so successful. I don't see that going away.
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    chrisw said:



    And in the Christmas Special, when "Danny" says he didn't do what he did in Death In Heaven for Earth but for Clara, it was just strange. If that's really Danny in that dream, then he sounds rather dickish. If it's all Clara's imagination, then she sounds rather egocentric.

    Having just re-watched that episode I think she had Danny say something Danny would say. It was her subconscious telling her dream-self something "dickish" enough that would ring true. Plus I dont think it was "dickish" (What a word!) , it played more helpless romantic and dont we all delude ourselves in our dreams anyway?

    On the bigger issue, I am firmly in the camp of hating the male/female component of Doctor/Companion. Forgiving the 70's outfits, Sara Jane was super cute, I was fond of Tegan and Sara but you never ever saw the slightest fliratation between the Doctor and them. I could not stand Rose's infatuation. I hated how Amy acted like she owned the Doctor ( though I accept that Smith was no Tenant in that regard). Even Clara's comment in the dream state implied some feeling towards the Doctor.There was comment made by Sara Jane in School Reunion Season 2 IIRC in a similar situation of an older companion confronting her time with the Doctor which landed bittersweet but not romantic.

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    WetRatsWetRats Posts: 6,314
    shroud68 said:

    chrisw said:



    And in the Christmas Special, when "Danny" says he didn't do what he did in Death In Heaven for Earth but for Clara, it was just strange. If that's really Danny in that dream, then he sounds rather dickish. If it's all Clara's imagination, then she sounds rather egocentric.

    Having just re-watched that episode I think she had Danny say something Danny would say. It was her subconscious telling her dream-self something "dickish" enough that would ring true. Plus I dont think it was "dickish" (What a word!) , it played more helpless romantic and dont we all delude ourselves in our dreams anyway?

    On the bigger issue, I am firmly in the camp of hating the male/female component of Doctor/Companion. Forgiving the 70's outfits, Sara Jane was super cute, I was fond of Tegan and Sara but you never ever saw the slightest fliratation between the Doctor and them. I could not stand Rose's infatuation. I hated how Amy acted like she owned the Doctor ( though I accept that Smith was no Tenant in that regard). Even Clara's comment in the dream state implied some feeling towards the Doctor.There was comment made by Sara Jane in School Reunion Season 2 IIRC in a similar situation of an older companion confronting her time with the Doctor which landed bittersweet but not romantic.
    Sounds like you want Grandpa Peter Falk to skip over all the mushy stuff.
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    chriswchrisw Posts: 792
    WetRats said:

    chrisw said:

    WetRats said:

    chrisw said:

    I continually go back and forth on Danny Pink. I liked that the show tried something more human for once, and extended it through the entire season. But the relationship often brought out the worst in both characters. Maybe that was the intent. I was always a little bothered by Danny's insistence that Clara stop traveling with The Doctor, as it turned him from a nice guy to someone a little too controlling (some would even say mentally abusive, but I think that's an exaggeration). Clara felt simultaneously devious and obsessive. Even The Doctor's constant insulting of Danny felt odd. It was like this weird relationship that made each of them seem a little less.

    I'm all for character flaws, but when they're all caused by the presence of one character whose not serving much of a purpose other than creating those flaws, I think it's time to cut that character loose.

    And in the Christmas Special, when "Danny" says he didn't do what he did in Death In Heaven for Earth but for Clara, it was just strange. If that's really Danny in that dream, then he sounds rather dickish. If it's all Clara's imagination, then she sounds rather egocentric. The whole relationship just turned weird by the end. I enjoyed it for most of that season, but I'm glad it's not bogging things down now.

    All those ugly, messy aspects to the three-way relationship are exactly what engaged me. It was a nice change-up from Amy & Rory's almost too-perfect epic love story.
    Yeah, that's why I'm still a little undecided about it. It certainly didn't ruin the season for me. It's just not something I need to see repeated or prolonged.

    And I tend to view Amy as a similarly toxic character. I think on her own, she started out fine, but throw Rory into the mix and she often comes across as selfish and manipulative. Typically a love affair softens a character. For her, it had the opposite effect.

    Maybe I just don't find Doctor Who well-suited for relationship drama.
    The relationship drama is a big part of what has made it so successful. I don't see that going away.
    Personally, I found the season that had no "relationship drama", the one with Tennant and Tate, to be one of the stronger seasons. And even the Rose and Martha seasons didn't make it the centerpiece of their seasons.

    I'm just not sure that a show like Doctor Who is equipped to deal with any heavy relationship issues. It's tough to really dig into the highs and lows of a human relationship in between fights with Daleks and Cybermen. It's always going to feel awkward to me. Clara hugging and saying goodbye to a Cyber Danny is one of those things that teeters on either side of emotional or silly. The show has many strengths, I just don't think that's one of them.
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    WetRatsWetRats Posts: 6,314
    chrisw said:

    I'm just not sure that a show like Doctor Who is equipped to deal with any heavy relationship issues. It's tough to really dig into the highs and lows of a human relationship in between fights with Daleks and Cybermen. It's always going to feel awkward to me. Clara hugging and saying goodbye to a Cyber Danny is one of those things that teeters on either side of emotional or silly. The show has many strengths, I just don't think that's one of them.

    Hundreds of thousands of young new Dr. Who fans would seem to disagree with you.
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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited September 2015
    chrisw said:

    And I consider Clara to be the Sarah Jane Smith of New Who, so I'm always going to be biased in that regard.

    You take that back! :)
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    chrisw said:

    I continually go back and forth on Danny Pink. I liked that the show tried something more human for once, and extended it through the entire season. But the relationship often brought out the worst in both characters. Maybe that was the intent. I was always a little bothered by Danny's insistence that Clara stop traveling with The Doctor, as it turned him from a nice guy to someone a little too controlling (some would even say mentally abusive, but I think that's an exaggeration). Clara felt simultaneously devious and obsessive. Even The Doctor's constant insulting of Danny felt odd. It was like this weird relationship that made each of them seem a little less.

    I'm all for character flaws, but when they're all caused by the presence of one character whose not serving much of a purpose other than creating those flaws, I think it's time to cut that character loose.

    And in the Christmas Special, when "Danny" says he didn't do what he did in Death In Heaven for Earth but for Clara, it was just strange. If that's really Danny in that dream, then he sounds rather dickish. If it's all Clara's imagination, then she sounds rather egocentric. The whole relationship just turned weird by the end. I enjoyed it for most of that season, but I'm glad it's not bogging things down now.

    I found Danny Pink to be a waste of a great actor. He was introduced after a whole episode of (out of the blue) conversations consisting of the Doctor spouting off his disgust of soldiers. Bam. Meet Danny Pink.. he's a soldier. He will be Clara's love interest and he will leave her/die to provide a tragic love story so she can emote. No one who steps in the Tardis can have a happy ending, you know. He seemed like a set-up. Introduced only to further the plot, never really intended to be developed as a character. Actually, I feel Clara is the same type of character but impossibly stretched over a year and a half of stories.

    A Matt Smith / Rory and Amy episode came on this morning on BBCA, and as I watched just 10 minutes of it, I was amazed at how GOOD it was, in comparison. Honestly, it was like the difference between watching a Marvel movie and Man of Steel... in one there's an underlying sense of optimism, and in the other a feeling of dread and gloom.
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    WetRats said:

    shroud68 said:

    chrisw said:



    And in the Christmas Special, when "Danny" says he didn't do what he did in Death In Heaven for Earth but for Clara, it was just strange. If that's really Danny in that dream, then he sounds rather dickish. If it's all Clara's imagination, then she sounds rather egocentric.

    Having just re-watched that episode I think she had Danny say something Danny would say. It was her subconscious telling her dream-self something "dickish" enough that would ring true. Plus I dont think it was "dickish" (What a word!) , it played more helpless romantic and dont we all delude ourselves in our dreams anyway?

    On the bigger issue, I am firmly in the camp of hating the male/female component of Doctor/Companion. Forgiving the 70's outfits, Sara Jane was super cute, I was fond of Tegan and Sara but you never ever saw the slightest fliratation between the Doctor and them. I could not stand Rose's infatuation. I hated how Amy acted like she owned the Doctor ( though I accept that Smith was no Tenant in that regard). Even Clara's comment in the dream state implied some feeling towards the Doctor.There was comment made by Sara Jane in School Reunion Season 2 IIRC in a similar situation of an older companion confronting her time with the Doctor which landed bittersweet but not romantic.
    Sounds like you want Grandpa Peter Falk to skip over all the mushy stuff.
    No. I don't want Doctor Who and his companions to be mushy about each other. Adric gets blowed up, be mushy. Danny Pink and Clara can get mushy for each other. I don't enjoy the Doctor and whatever companion getting mushy. I want my Doctor Who to be the Doctor of "Eldrad Must Live" or "Exterminate", not mushy.
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    Fade2BlackFade2Black Posts: 1,457
    edited September 2015
    Our Wanderers in the 4th Dimension podcast's series 9 premiere discussion ran very long. It's over two hours (before edits). Granted, we also discuss a Big Finish audio adventure and several comics, so the talk isn't all The Magician's Apprentice. In any event, we had a lot to say about this episode, mostly favorable. We may opt to save the comics and/or Big Finish audio adventure talk for another episode, though we may just release an extra long episode (still undecided). In any event, I'll post a link once the podcast goes live (likely sometime on Thursday).

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    WetRatsWetRats Posts: 6,314
    shroud68 said:

    No. I don't want Doctor Who and his companions to be mushy about each other. Adric gets blowed up, be mushy. Danny Pink and Clara can get mushy for each other. I don't enjoy the Doctor and whatever companion getting mushy. I want my Doctor Who to be the Doctor of "Eldrad Must Live" or "Exterminate", not mushy.

    Watch the old episodes, then.

    The new, very successful, Doctor Who is going to continue to have that element.
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    chriswchrisw Posts: 792
    I would never want the series to revert to the often emotion-less style of the classic era. As I re-watch those episodes, the moments where they allow emotions through (Jo's goodbye, for example) only highlight how empty the relationships are through much of the series. And I'm okay with a little romance if it makes sense. Even with the old series, it always seemed odd that Nyssa didn't at the very least have a non-reciprocated crush on The Doctor. Or that the only flirting we get from The Doctor and Romana is likely due to the actors themselves being involved, not as part of a conscious effort on the writers.

    I'm just saying that when the show delves into human issues that are very real and very raw, it feels adrift. The more complicated aspects of Clara and Danny's relationship, the Ponds "divorce", Amy losing her baby... the show either stumbles or glosses over these things, which sells the storylines short. I feel they end up not doing justice to something that should be important, and that they make the show feel slightly awkward or incomplete as a result.
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    Mr_CosmicMr_Cosmic Posts: 3,200
    edited September 2015
    There were some cool moments but overall it was a lousy episode.

    My biggest beef is with the production values. It looked horrible. Cheap, home movie quality. The frame rate seemed too fast at times. The audio made dialogue almost impossible to follow. Sometimes the music would drown out what the actors were saying.

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    WetRats said:

    shroud68 said:

    No. I don't want Doctor Who and his companions to be mushy about each other. Adric gets blowed up, be mushy. Danny Pink and Clara can get mushy for each other. I don't enjoy the Doctor and whatever companion getting mushy. I want my Doctor Who to be the Doctor of "Eldrad Must Live" or "Exterminate", not mushy.

    Watch the old episodes, then.

    The new, very successful, Doctor Who is going to continue to have that element.
    At no point did I say I did not enjoy the new episodes or play the "Get Off My Lawn " card. I stated that I do not like a certain aspect of the re-vamped Doctor Who. It was a lament not a dismissal. @WetRats Do you ever get tired of picking fights?
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    Fade2BlackFade2Black Posts: 1,457
    edited September 2015
    image

    Wanderers in the 4th Dimension (the Doctor Who podcast that I co-host) discusses and reviews The Magician’s Apprentice in this exceptionally long episode. The run time is over two hours. In our defense, the talk isn’t all about the series opener, we also review the Big Finish Audio adventure Prisoners of the Lake, as well as several Doctor Who comics (Titan). If I did this right, the above image should be linked to the episode. If that doesn't work, try listening to it on Facebook or on iTunes.



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    WetRatsWetRats Posts: 6,314
    shroud68 said:

    @WetRats Do you ever get tired of picking fights?

    Do you ever get tired of complaining?
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    Touche I guess. Doesn't really fit my M.O. on this forum but I will defer to you mostly so I dont have to go back and forth with you.

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