I'm getting a little confused by some of the terms being thrown around here. How is this movie being considered more sci-fi than the previous FF films, which also had solid SF themes as well?
The previous FF films were super hero movies that used "science" as an excuse to give them powers. This looks like a science fiction move that might explore some classic science fiction themes that star the FF. Or at least that was what I got from the teaser trailer.
Which is not something I have a problem with, nor is that uncommon for any superhero title in general. Most of the silver-age Marvels have that in common. But even so, those earlier FF movies still had classic SF themes running through them: scientific exploration, space stations, aliens, etc. What I see missing in the trailer is any exploration of the main theme: the FF as superheros... because when all is said and done, even with the sci-fi emphasis, this is still a superhero franchise. I want to see the FF as characters, not just pieces in a mood piece. And, as someone else has pointed out, where is the fun in this outing? For all of the problems the other FF films had, I still found them to have a level of fun to them.
I don't hate the two previous movies in fact I did find some enjoyment out of them. I will say they aren't very good. They played lip service to all those things you talk about, and the movie looked compromised at fundamental levels. We already have loads and load of superhero movies. I am OK with some one trying to change the formula a little bit by giving us a different genre of comic book movie. I do think family is a core value of a FF property, and that maybe something you don't show in a trailer when you are trying to win back the general movie going audience. I am not the biggest FF fan, but I don't think of them of super heroes. I think of them more as explorers who just happen to save the world between Reed's experiments.
I simply don't think we've seen enough of this movie through a teaser to tell one way or the other whether or not this is going to be the Fantastic Four movie that will wash away the bad taste in my mouth for the previous two movies. I just hope it's more fun than what we've seen from the teaser so far. A much as I disliked the previous two FF movies and I do. I think they are terrible, there were some fun moments with those movies. Especially in the first one where they are testing their powers and I enjoyed some of the comedic moments in that. I hope we see this group form the family that has made the FF what they are.
I simply don't think we've seen enough of this movie through a teaser to tell one way or the other whether or not this is going to be the Fantastic Four movie that will wash away the bad taste in my mouth for the previous two movies.
Dude!
Never put a movie in your mouth!
Do you have any idea how many people have touched one of those things?
Well, considering we're talking about the previous 2 FF movies, not many. Also, if you wash it with soap, it's not so bad. Unless we're talking about the previous two FF movies. Nothing makes them watchable. At least for me.
Well, considering we're talking about the previous 2 FF movies, not many. Also, if you wash it with soap, it's not so bad. Unless we're talking about the previous two FF movies. Nothing makes them watchable. At least for me.
I know it's just me, but I would rather watch the Corman FF movie then the two Fox gave us.
Well, considering we're talking about the previous 2 FF movies, not many. Also, if you wash it with soap, it's not so bad. Unless we're talking about the previous two FF movies. Nothing makes them watchable. At least for me.
I know it's just me, but I would rather watch the Corman FF movie then the two Fox gave us.
From the recently released solicits for Marvel's June books-- Mr. Fantastic (well, two versions of him) front and center on the cover of what is sure to be Marvel's biggest book in June.
Also solicited a collection of the Marvel Knights 4 series by Aguirre-Sacasa & McNiven. Probably the first of a number of such collections to be solicited in the summer months leading up to the movie release.
To be fair, though, they didn't solicit an actual poster of this cover. So maybe they are playing it safe ;)
From the recently released solicits for Marvel's June books-- Mr. Fantastic (well, two versions of him) front and center on the cover of what is sure to be Marvel's biggest book in June.
Also solicited a collection of the Marvel Knights 4 series by Aguirre-Sacasa & McNiven. Probably the first of a number of such collections to be solicited in the summer months leading up to the movie release.
To be fair, though, they didn't solicit an actual poster of this cover. So maybe they are playing it safe ;)
A friend who works in sales (a business contact really) told me in no uncertain terms the order cancellation of FF came from on top and that a lot of the rumors over the last few months (though the poster one was exaggerated) have been mostly true. For financial reasons Marvel can't afford to cancel half the line with X-men, but they gave DoFP no merchandising support (marvel still retains those rights toys, t-shirts etc) and they don't plan on any support for FF. It's not about the characters, it's about the IP of the Fantastic Four. Reed Richards on the cover of a book is not the same thing as the "Fantastic Four" emblazoned across the top third of the book, or an action figure or whatever.
Also it seems to my contact that this moratorium on FF is basically just for the release window of the movie (possibly through the home release as well).
From the recently released solicits for Marvel's June books-- Mr. Fantastic (well, two versions of him) front and center on the cover of what is sure to be Marvel's biggest book in June.
Also solicited a collection of the Marvel Knights 4 series by Aguirre-Sacasa & McNiven. Probably the first of a number of such collections to be solicited in the summer months leading up to the movie release.
To be fair, though, they didn't solicit an actual poster of this cover. So maybe they are playing it safe ;)
A friend who works in sales (a business contact really) told me in no uncertain terms the order cancellation of FF came from on top and that a lot of the rumors over the last few months (though the poster one was exaggerated) have been mostly true. For financial reasons Marvel can't afford to cancel half the line with X-men, but they gave DoFP no merchandising support (marvel still retains those rights toys, t-shirts etc) and they don't plan on any support for FF. It's not about the characters, it's about the IP of the Fantastic Four. Reed Richards on the cover of a book is not the same thing as the "Fantastic Four" emblazoned across the top third of the book, or an action figure or whatever.
Also it seems to my contact that this moratorium on FF is basically just for the release window of the movie (possibly through the home release as well).
Look I don't want to refute what your contact told you, because there is no way to argue against hearsay.
But what I will say, based on the public facts of what the publishing division is actually publishing, is that the premise that the monthly Fantastic Four comic is ending next month because of someone at the top being mad at Fox and waiting to hurt their movie in August, basically the narrative that BleedingCool and others tried to get some clicks from-- seemed unlikely at the beginning. And I think has become less likely with each solicitation we've seen since.
Put simply. If publishing was given marching orders to hurt the Fantastic Four IP, they are going about it in a very strange way. And here's why--
The current, 'IT IS ALL ENDING!' story in FF has bumped up sales FF was a mid-tier book. And, as of the most recent sales charts sales are up 20%. This ending story has been promoted. The final issue is getting an oversized treatment. They are making a thing out of it ending. Which, I think, actually draws MORE attention to the FF than if they let the book putter along where it was at. Not to mention, it looks like the FF characters are getting more face time this summer in the main event book then, to my memory, they have had since Civil War. If getting a book off the shelves is supposed to negatively affect box office... then why cancel Avengers and New Avengers IN MAY? To me, this was the real smoking gun on why these rumors of cancellation-as-punishment hold no water. They are doing the same thing the month after to the TWO MAIN AVENGERS BOOKS. Because what FF ending is really about is the ramp up to Secret Wars (where the FF characters seem to be heavily featured, alongside their fellow, cancelled, Avengers), and we now know that a lot of major Marvel books will be getting a relaunch (maybe even a reboot) out the other side of Secret War. I'm sure we can agree that Marvel is not mad at it's own studio, and therefore looking to punish the Avengers movie. So... maybe not having a monthly floppy on the shelf is not actually a punishment to begin with?
If cancelling FF is part of a no-covers-that-say-FF moratorium, then why publish trades of old material that comes out AFTER the cancellation? Books that are sure to still be on shelves and in bookstores when the movie comes out.
According to Amazon, this, the Fantastic Four: The Epic Collection comes out in June. And this reissue comes out in late July. Sort of just in time for the movie to come out. Although that one was actually listed in the Marvel solicits for June. So maybe they moved it up. And maybe that means there will be even more FF collections solicited for July, and August.
To me. The print division seems to be doing what it usually does-- using the characters in the stories they fit in. Ending volumes to later relaunch them for middling books as they have done many times before (including done with FF). And reissuing trades of old material around the time the movie comes out, as usual.
As for the merchandising, or lack thereof, for the movies. I pay a lot less attention to that than I do the comics. And I believe that Marvel might choose to downplay or exclude licensed goods of the movie versions of their IPs in favor of the versions they are wholly in control of. Or to remove distraction from brands they are building, like Guardians. But, to me, that is not the same thing as the narrative of 'this is personal. This is a suit being angry and acting out against Fox.' It may be that they are instead using their discretion over toy licensing to both not help the competition, as well as to stay focused on the more enduring and evergreen versions of the IP. Put anothter way-- I have seen a lot of "Movie Beasts" in cheap bins. And maybe the kids out there weren't dying for a "1960s In A Plaid Shirt Wolverine" instead of the "normal" one. To me, that is not a personal axe to grind. That is smart business as the owner of a character-based IP company.
And the narrative that this is what is behind the FF comic cancellation, especially, seems silly. It seems the thing of BleedingCool clickbait. Especially in light of what publishing has been doing with those characters ever since.
I could be wrong. We have said earlier in this discussion that time will tell. But I feel like, with each successive Marvel solicitation, what time is telling is that these initial rumors were bunk. Or, at best, overblown.
PS- Sorry. That got a little long. It was written in bursts while cooking dinner, so I sort of didn't notice until it posted! Feel free to skim ;)
to me, that is not the same thing as the narrative of 'this is personal. This is a suit being angry and acting out against Fox.'
I don't feel like getting back into this thread too deeply until more material from the new film is released, or until the series gets renewed. As far as the "suit" handing down a decree against the FF, Isaac "Ike" Perlmutter is more than just a suit. He is the CEO of Marvel Entertainment and has been for 10 years and he is an "unusual" businessman, to say the least. Learn more about his business style here. There is usually a large grain of truth to business rumors being passed around by industry insiders. That's all I can say on the matter.
We already know that Marvel Comics can get away with this cancellation since Fantastic Four doesn’t sell particularly well, ending event sales not withstanding. Although if the movie turns out to be a success, which is in doubt, the comic would probably get a boost. And while X-Men is too valuable to cancel, that doesn’t mean it’s going to get Marvel’s full support either. Just releasing FF collections on Amazon while the movie is coming out could be explained away as business savvy. They may be willing to get a sales boost from the movie - if there is one to be had.
To be clear, these collected editions are not Amazon exclusive, it is just that Amazon allows us a peek at the content and release date months in advance. They are also being distributed to shops via Diamond, and I would guess to bookstores as per usual distribution.
I think the main difference between Avengers and FF is that everyone knows Avengers is just getting a relaunch. We may not have that info per se, but no one thinks that when SW is over Avengers won't be back with a new #1 immediately. Maybe FF will be the same but no one seems to be under that impression. And they have definitely pulled back on FF in their licenses. Just one current example (no means definitive proof), the Marvel Contest of Champions app which features characters from every corner of the Marvel U, doesn't feature a single member of the FF. Not even Doctor Doom. True that there are only 31 characters available but nearly every other current franchise is at least represented. Trade sales, even floppy sales aside, the general public consumes most of these characters through movies, TV, games and merchandise that that's where they are really being buried. I think the cancellation of the book is more to create the pretense that it's a currently dormant franchise so that a complete lack of licensing seems, superficially, plausible. We are deep inside the bubble on this, so sometimes it's hard to get an idea of what it looks like to the general consumer, or how much visibility really matters when you are talking about 2nd tier (my favorite team in all of comics) characters.
Just one current example (no means definitive proof), the Marvel Contest of Champions app which features characters from every corner of the Marvel U, doesn't feature a single member of the FF. Not even Doctor Doom. True that there are only 31 characters available but nearly every other current franchise is at least represented. Trade sales, even floppy sales aside, the general public consumes most of these characters through movies, TV, games and merchandise that that's where they are really being buried. I think the cancellation of the book is more to create the pretense that it's a currently dormant franchise so that a complete lack of licensing seems, superficially, plausible.
Two comments: You play MCoC too? What a great time waster that game is! And I had wondered why no Silver Surfer or Human Torch characters were to be found.
From the recently released solicits for Marvel's June books-- Mr. Fantastic (well, two versions of him) front and center on the cover of what is sure to be Marvel's biggest book in June.
Also solicited a collection of the Marvel Knights 4 series by Aguirre-Sacasa & McNiven. Probably the first of a number of such collections to be solicited in the summer months leading up to the movie release.
To be fair, though, they didn't solicit an actual poster of this cover. So maybe they are playing it safe ;)
I think the main difference between Avengers and FF is that everyone knows Avengers is just getting a relaunch. We may not have that info per se, but no one thinks that when SW is over Avengers won't be back with a new #1 immediately. Maybe FF will be the same but no one seems to be under that impression. And they have definitely pulled back on FF in their licenses. Just one current example (no means definitive proof), the Marvel Contest of Champions app which features characters from every corner of the Marvel U, doesn't feature a single member of the FF. Not even Doctor Doom. True that there are only 31 characters available but nearly every other current franchise is at least represented. Trade sales, even floppy sales aside, the general public consumes most of these characters through movies, TV, games and merchandise that that's where they are really being buried. I think the cancellation of the book is more to create the pretense that it's a currently dormant franchise so that a complete lack of licensing seems, superficially, plausible. We are deep inside the bubble on this, so sometimes it's hard to get an idea of what it looks like to the general consumer, or how much visibility really matters when you are talking about 2nd tier (my favorite team in all of comics) characters.
I think all of that is well observed. And I agree that there would be reason for FF readers to believe that a cancellation of that title might be a longer suspension than, say, when you hear that Avengers is "ending." My guess is that Secret Wars gives them a chance to do some soft reboots, reshuffle some creative teams. And, maybe in the case of the FF, which has struggled to sell despite a lot of big name creators being put on it, they may want to really wait and see if the movie succeeds in finding an audience.
I mean, from within the bubble- as you put it well- it seems that movie already came out and was terrible. But outside the bubble, there is a chance that version of the FF will find an audience that even the prior film incarnation failed to hook. And if that happens, then whatever big narrative end or multiversal limbo Secret Wars puts the characters into, Marvel is in an easy position to reboot or align with the movie version if they choose to.
Or, if the movie flops, then it's Classic Coke time! And maybe a relaunch of your father's Fantasticar will actually get a boost. (And probably eventually fall back to the midlist, but that's the game, isn't it?)
And I totally agree that, when it comes to mainstream imaging of Marvel as a brand, there has been less face time and inclusion for the FF. As well as a reduction of featuring the X-Men, and in some cases, even Spider-Man.
But to me, that makes business sense. Because any chance to show you what Marvel is, or to introduce their catalog of characters to the mainstream, why not use that chance to give a push to the brands that you own and control completely across all platforms? Especially when it comes to real estate you control.
Remember-- we're in an age where kids want to be Iron Man or Star Lord for Halloween. STAR LORD? Imagine that 10 years ago. That doesn't happen without a great movie, as well as the build-up and reminders to support it. So why give screen time or face time to promoting the FF characters when you need kids to be getting excited about Black Panther, Black Bolt, or Captain Marvel?
And I know that the omission of the FF can seem that much more glaring when games like Contest of Champions include X-characters, Spider-Man, and Deadpool. Certainly that is helping the other studios. But if you leave those characters out of mainstream platforms, then that is money left on the table.
But let's be honest. When it comes to the mainstream, and licensing, I know we are in the bubble. But I think we can notice that the FF characters were never hot on the licensing side. The FF are... not so much money left on the table.
As brands to merchandise, the FF have never been a hit. They are a hugely important part of Marvel history. But I can't remember a time they've been the cool thing. (Except Doctom Doom. Because, DOCTOR DOOM). And I've been reading comics since the early '80s. Even the people who talked up the Byrne era of FF always seemed like the older-than-me crowd. (And, hey, that isn't to be ageist. They were right! It was classic work. But I didn't find that out until I was older.) But that wasn't where the heat was. And I think Marvel knew that even back then.
I thought I remembered this, but I got curious and did a quick check, and I was right--
When Marvel did their Secret Wars figures back in '84, at a time when all these IPs were equal properties in the company's heart, here are the figures they went with.
Doom made it in. Because, well, DOOM. Hell, they even put Doom in the Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends opening sequence. But the FF themselves were never on the show. And on it goes. Those were just things that came to mind. I think there are probably many other examples of FF not being the hot licensed properties relative to other Marvel brands long before there were any film studio politics involved.
So, to summarize, I totally agree that Marvel is currently pushing the brands it wholly owns and controls more than the ones it doesn't. But I think the narrative that there is a special personal animus between Marvel execs and Fox's version of the FF seems too tidy. And cancelling the FF as a shot in that battle doesn't make sense. I think it ignores context of how little merchandising Marvel has done for the FF historically, as well as how meager of a seller FF has always tended to be. I don't think a lack of FF floppies on the specialty shop shelf in August, or a lack of movie specific toys is really a way to strike a blow against the box office. Rather, I think it is not selling things that weren't going to sell much anyway.
FF has long struggled to sell comic books, and everything else. And right now, they are doing a wait-and-see on the other guy's investment.
We'll see what the solicitations in the next two months bring.
When Marvel did their Secret Wars figures back in '84, at a time when all these IPs were equal properties in the company's heart, here are the figures they went with.
Doom made it in. Because, well, DOOM. Hell, they even put Doom in the Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends opening sequence. But the FF themselves were never on the show.
For what it's worth, Mr. Fantastic was going to be in the fourth wave of Secret Wars figures, but weak Wave 3 sales ended the line. And I think the FF rights were held by another studio than the one that produced Spidey and His Amazing Friends. But I agree with you in general.
I was at Wizard World Raleigh last weekend (working), and I saw more Star Lords and Groots (two!) than X-Men (including Wolverine), Fantastic Four members, and Spider-Men combined.
When Marvel did their Secret Wars figures back in '84, at a time when all these IPs were equal properties in the company's heart, here are the figures they went with.
Doom made it in. Because, well, DOOM. Hell, they even put Doom in the Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends opening sequence. But the FF themselves were never on the show.
For what it's worth, Mr. Fantastic was going to be in the fourth wave of Secret Wars figures, but weak Wave 3 sales ended the line. And I think the FF rights were held by another studio than the one that produced Spidey and His Amazing Friends. But I agree with you in general.
I was at Wizard World Raleigh last weekend (working), and I saw more Star Lords and Groots (two!) than X-Men (including Wolverine), Fantastic Four members, and Spider-Men combined.
Insightful as always.
And it seems that, at least when they were cutting their animation deals back then, they were smart enough to make the FF family and Doom as separate IPs (as he appeared in Spider-Man& His Amazing Friends).
Too bad they didn't do that when they sold the movie rights in '86!
When Marvel did their Secret Wars figures back in '84, at a time when all these IPs were equal properties in the company's heart, here are the figures they went with.
Doom made it in. Because, well, DOOM. Hell, they even put Doom in the Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends opening sequence. But the FF themselves were never on the show.
For what it's worth, Mr. Fantastic was going to be in the fourth wave of Secret Wars figures, but weak Wave 3 sales ended the line. And I think the FF rights were held by another studio than the one that produced Spidey and His Amazing Friends. But I agree with you in general.
I was at Wizard World Raleigh last weekend (working), and I saw more Star Lords and Groots (two!) than X-Men (including Wolverine), Fantastic Four members, and Spider-Men combined.
Insightful as always.
And it seems that, at least when they were cutting their animation deals back then, they were smart enough to make the FF family and Doom as separate IPs (as he appeared in Spider-Man& His Amazing Friends).
Too bad they didn't do that when they sold the movie rights in '86!
Not always that smart. As you probably know, they couldn't use Human Torch in the ’78 FF cartoon because his rights were tied up by Universal, hence H.E.R.B.I.E. the robot. Some rights make more sense to keep together.
When Marvel did their Secret Wars figures back in '84, at a time when all these IPs were equal properties in the company's heart, here are the figures they went with.
Doom made it in. Because, well, DOOM. Hell, they even put Doom in the Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends opening sequence. But the FF themselves were never on the show.
For what it's worth, Mr. Fantastic was going to be in the fourth wave of Secret Wars figures, but weak Wave 3 sales ended the line. And I think the FF rights were held by another studio than the one that produced Spidey and His Amazing Friends. But I agree with you in general.
I was at Wizard World Raleigh last weekend (working), and I saw more Star Lords and Groots (two!) than X-Men (including Wolverine), Fantastic Four members, and Spider-Men combined.
Insightful as always.
And it seems that, at least when they were cutting their animation deals back then, they were smart enough to make the FF family and Doom as separate IPs (as he appeared in Spider-Man& His Amazing Friends).
Too bad they didn't do that when they sold the movie rights in '86!
Not always that smart. As you probably know, they couldn't use Human Torch in the ’78 FF cartoon because his rights were tied up by Universal, hence H.E.R.B.I.E. the robot. Some rights make more sense to keep together.
I think FF used to be a big part of the marketing up until the mid '80s. I was born in 1971, and I have clear memories of coming across FF toys, games, coloring books, etc, all during the '70s, long before I really dived into comics in the early '80s. Just last year, I came across an old package of Fantastic Four bubble gum in a box of old toys. House ads always put Thing in with Spider-Man, Captain America, Hulk, and all the big names.
Their last big hurrah seems to have been the Byrne era. The Marvel Universe still centered around them. Remember, the resurrection of Jean Grey happened in FF, not the X-titles. After Secret Wars, though, things seemed to shift.
To me, they feel like the Superman of the Marvel Universe. Historically important, and everyone feels like they should sell well and be relevant, but the effort put in to make them so compared to the financial rewards rarely matches up.
I think FF used to be a big part of the marketing up until the mid '80s. I was born in 1971, and I have clear memories of coming across FF toys, games, coloring books, etc, all during the '70s, long before I really dived into comics in the early '80s. Just last year, I came across an old package of Fantastic Four bubble gum in a box of old toys. House ads always put Thing in with Spider-Man, Captain America, Hulk, and all the big names.
Their last big hurrah seems to have been the Byrne era. The Marvel Universe still centered around them. Remember, the resurrection of Jean Grey happened in FF, not the X-titles. After Secret Wars, though, things seemed to shift.
To me, they feel like the Superman of the Marvel Universe. Historically important, and everyone feels like they should sell well and be relevant, but the effort put in to make them so compared to the financial rewards rarely matches up.
I agree that I think they were considered cooler/hotter in the early days of Marvel, when they were the heart of the universe, and largely where the universe was built.
I don't think they still had that spot even in the Byrne days, though. To my memory, Uncanny X-Men was a bigger and "hotter" book than FF at that time.
And if I am remembering my anecdotes right, Claremont was not pleased by the launch of X-Factor (the first new ongoing X-book that would be out of his and Ann Nocenti's control, but they wanted more and he was too busy to do another one).
So that may be been why The Return of Jean Grey story was water carried by Avengers and FF rather than Uncanny X-Men and New Mutants. Not because Avengers and FF were better places to launch from.
I think Uncanny X-Men was a hotter title, and a more sensible place to promote and launch X-Factor from. But how I remember hearing the story Claremont was already pissed. And maybe they didn't want to push him too far on that one. Especially given the money he was helping to make for them at the time. So the books promoting it were by other people, and other editors.
I'm trying to think back to 30 years ago, but at least among my group of friends, the FF was receding at the same time X-Men was starting to dominate. I remember reading FF before X-Men, and for some time being the only one among my friends even reading X-Men, until that Wolverine mini suddenly turned everyone into a Wolverine fan overnight.
I almost brought up that politics probably played some role in FF reviving Jean Grey, because I'm certain it did, but at the time it still didn't seem odd to see such a big event happening in FF. Today, it would seem downright odd and shortsighted. If anything, it was The Avengers issue that seemed out of place, since at that time the only big stories happening in Avengers were typically related to just the Avengers. I knew more people who were forced to buy that Avengers issue to follow the story, while most of them were already reading FF.
Or, maybe I just hung out with a weird crowd who thought FF was better than Avengers or X-Men.
Comments
Never put a movie in your mouth!
Do you have any idea how many people have touched one of those things?
There were problems, yes.
But this wasn't any better.
This was far superior... so I would rather watch this than all three films.
From the recently released solicits for Marvel's June books-- Mr. Fantastic (well, two versions of him) front and center on the cover of what is sure to be Marvel's biggest book in June.
If it is to be believed that Perlmutter couldn't stand to see Fantastic Four posters in the Marvel offices, hopefully he doesn't look at covers of event books!
Also solicited a collection of the Marvel Knights 4 series by Aguirre-Sacasa & McNiven. Probably the first of a number of such collections to be solicited in the summer months leading up to the movie release.
To be fair, though, they didn't solicit an actual poster of this cover. So maybe they are playing it safe ;)
Also it seems to my contact that this moratorium on FF is basically just for the release window of the movie (possibly through the home release as well).
But what I will say, based on the public facts of what the publishing division is actually publishing, is that the premise that the monthly Fantastic Four comic is ending next month because of someone at the top being mad at Fox and waiting to hurt their movie in August, basically the narrative that BleedingCool and others tried to get some clicks from-- seemed unlikely at the beginning. And I think has become less likely with each solicitation we've seen since.
Put simply. If publishing was given marching orders to hurt the Fantastic Four IP, they are going about it in a very strange way. And here's why--
The current, 'IT IS ALL ENDING!' story in FF has bumped up sales
FF was a mid-tier book. And, as of the most recent sales charts sales are up 20%. This ending story has been promoted. The final issue is getting an oversized treatment. They are making a thing out of it ending. Which, I think, actually draws MORE attention to the FF than if they let the book putter along where it was at. Not to mention, it looks like the FF characters are getting more face time this summer in the main event book then, to my memory, they have had since Civil War.
If getting a book off the shelves is supposed to negatively affect box office... then why cancel Avengers and New Avengers IN MAY?
To me, this was the real smoking gun on why these rumors of cancellation-as-punishment hold no water. They are doing the same thing the month after to the TWO MAIN AVENGERS BOOKS. Because what FF ending is really about is the ramp up to Secret Wars (where the FF characters seem to be heavily featured, alongside their fellow, cancelled, Avengers), and we now know that a lot of major Marvel books will be getting a relaunch (maybe even a reboot) out the other side of Secret War. I'm sure we can agree that Marvel is not mad at it's own studio, and therefore looking to punish the Avengers movie. So... maybe not having a monthly floppy on the shelf is not actually a punishment to begin with?
If cancelling FF is part of a no-covers-that-say-FF moratorium, then why publish trades of old material that comes out AFTER the cancellation? Books that are sure to still be on shelves and in bookstores when the movie comes out.
According to Amazon, this, the Fantastic Four: The Epic Collection comes out in June. And this reissue comes out in late July. Sort of just in time for the movie to come out. Although that one was actually listed in the Marvel solicits for June. So maybe they moved it up. And maybe that means there will be even more FF collections solicited for July, and August.
To me. The print division seems to be doing what it usually does-- using the characters in the stories they fit in. Ending volumes to later relaunch them for middling books as they have done many times before (including done with FF). And reissuing trades of old material around the time the movie comes out, as usual.
As for the merchandising, or lack thereof, for the movies. I pay a lot less attention to that than I do the comics. And I believe that Marvel might choose to downplay or exclude licensed goods of the movie versions of their IPs in favor of the versions they are wholly in control of. Or to remove distraction from brands they are building, like Guardians. But, to me, that is not the same thing as the narrative of 'this is personal. This is a suit being angry and acting out against Fox.' It may be that they are instead using their discretion over toy licensing to both not help the competition, as well as to stay focused on the more enduring and evergreen versions of the IP. Put anothter way-- I have seen a lot of "Movie Beasts" in cheap bins. And maybe the kids out there weren't dying for a "1960s In A Plaid Shirt Wolverine" instead of the "normal" one. To me, that is not a personal axe to grind. That is smart business as the owner of a character-based IP company.
And the narrative that this is what is behind the FF comic cancellation, especially, seems silly. It seems the thing of BleedingCool clickbait. Especially in light of what publishing has been doing with those characters ever since.
I could be wrong. We have said earlier in this discussion that time will tell. But I feel like, with each successive Marvel solicitation, what time is telling is that these initial rumors were bunk. Or, at best, overblown.
PS- Sorry. That got a little long. It was written in bursts while cooking dinner, so I sort of didn't notice until it posted! Feel free to skim ;)
We already know that Marvel Comics can get away with this cancellation since Fantastic Four doesn’t sell particularly well, ending event sales not withstanding. Although if the movie turns out to be a success, which is in doubt, the comic would probably get a boost. And while X-Men is too valuable to cancel, that doesn’t mean it’s going to get Marvel’s full support either. Just releasing FF collections on Amazon while the movie is coming out could be explained away as business savvy. They may be willing to get a sales boost from the movie - if there is one to be had.
M
Also, excellent point.
The face at the lower right is Christopher Lloyd.
Namor looks really familiar, too.
I mean, from within the bubble- as you put it well- it seems that movie already came out and was terrible. But outside the bubble, there is a chance that version of the FF will find an audience that even the prior film incarnation failed to hook. And if that happens, then whatever big narrative end or multiversal limbo Secret Wars puts the characters into, Marvel is in an easy position to reboot or align with the movie version if they choose to.
Or, if the movie flops, then it's Classic Coke time! And maybe a relaunch of your father's Fantasticar will actually get a boost. (And probably eventually fall back to the midlist, but that's the game, isn't it?)
And I totally agree that, when it comes to mainstream imaging of Marvel as a brand, there has been less face time and inclusion for the FF. As well as a reduction of featuring the X-Men, and in some cases, even Spider-Man.
But to me, that makes business sense. Because any chance to show you what Marvel is, or to introduce their catalog of characters to the mainstream, why not use that chance to give a push to the brands that you own and control completely across all platforms? Especially when it comes to real estate you control.
Remember-- we're in an age where kids want to be Iron Man or Star Lord for Halloween. STAR LORD? Imagine that 10 years ago. That doesn't happen without a great movie, as well as the build-up and reminders to support it. So why give screen time or face time to promoting the FF characters when you need kids to be getting excited about Black Panther, Black Bolt, or Captain Marvel?
And I know that the omission of the FF can seem that much more glaring when games like Contest of Champions include X-characters, Spider-Man, and Deadpool. Certainly that is helping the other studios. But if you leave those characters out of mainstream platforms, then that is money left on the table.
But let's be honest. When it comes to the mainstream, and licensing, I know we are in the bubble. But I think we can notice that the FF characters were never hot on the licensing side. The FF are... not so much money left on the table.
As brands to merchandise, the FF have never been a hit. They are a hugely important part of Marvel history. But I can't remember a time they've been the cool thing. (Except Doctom Doom. Because, DOCTOR DOOM). And I've been reading comics since the early '80s. Even the people who talked up the Byrne era of FF always seemed like the older-than-me crowd. (And, hey, that isn't to be ageist. They were right! It was classic work. But I didn't find that out until I was older.) But that wasn't where the heat was. And I think Marvel knew that even back then.
I thought I remembered this, but I got curious and did a quick check, and I was right--
When Marvel did their Secret Wars figures back in '84, at a time when all these IPs were equal properties in the company's heart, here are the figures they went with.
Doom made it in. Because, well, DOOM. Hell, they even put Doom in the Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends opening sequence. But the FF themselves were never on the show. And on it goes. Those were just things that came to mind. I think there are probably many other examples of FF not being the hot licensed properties relative to other Marvel brands long before there were any film studio politics involved.
So, to summarize, I totally agree that Marvel is currently pushing the brands it wholly owns and controls more than the ones it doesn't. But I think the narrative that there is a special personal animus between Marvel execs and Fox's version of the FF seems too tidy. And cancelling the FF as a shot in that battle doesn't make sense. I think it ignores context of how little merchandising Marvel has done for the FF historically, as well as how meager of a seller FF has always tended to be. I don't think a lack of FF floppies on the specialty shop shelf in August, or a lack of movie specific toys is really a way to strike a blow against the box office. Rather, I think it is not selling things that weren't going to sell much anyway.
FF has long struggled to sell comic books, and everything else. And right now, they are doing a wait-and-see on the other guy's investment.
We'll see what the solicitations in the next two months bring.
I was at Wizard World Raleigh last weekend (working), and I saw more Star Lords and Groots (two!) than X-Men (including Wolverine), Fantastic Four members, and Spider-Men combined.
And it seems that, at least when they were cutting their animation deals back then, they were smart enough to make the FF family and Doom as separate IPs (as he appeared in Spider-Man& His Amazing Friends).
Too bad they didn't do that when they sold the movie rights in '86!
Their last big hurrah seems to have been the Byrne era. The Marvel Universe still centered around them. Remember, the resurrection of Jean Grey happened in FF, not the X-titles. After Secret Wars, though, things seemed to shift.
To me, they feel like the Superman of the Marvel Universe. Historically important, and everyone feels like they should sell well and be relevant, but the effort put in to make them so compared to the financial rewards rarely matches up.
I don't think they still had that spot even in the Byrne days, though. To my memory, Uncanny X-Men was a bigger and "hotter" book than FF at that time.
And if I am remembering my anecdotes right, Claremont was not pleased by the launch of X-Factor (the first new ongoing X-book that would be out of his and Ann Nocenti's control, but they wanted more and he was too busy to do another one).
So that may be been why The Return of Jean Grey story was water carried by Avengers and FF rather than Uncanny X-Men and New Mutants. Not because Avengers and FF were better places to launch from.
I think Uncanny X-Men was a hotter title, and a more sensible place to promote and launch X-Factor from. But how I remember hearing the story Claremont was already pissed. And maybe they didn't want to push him too far on that one. Especially given the money he was helping to make for them at the time. So the books promoting it were by other people, and other editors.
I almost brought up that politics probably played some role in FF reviving Jean Grey, because I'm certain it did, but at the time it still didn't seem odd to see such a big event happening in FF. Today, it would seem downright odd and shortsighted. If anything, it was The Avengers issue that seemed out of place, since at that time the only big stories happening in Avengers were typically related to just the Avengers. I knew more people who were forced to buy that Avengers issue to follow the story, while most of them were already reading FF.
Or, maybe I just hung out with a weird crowd who thought FF was better than Avengers or X-Men.