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Candidates For The Cancellation Calvacade

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  • GregGreg Posts: 1,946
    Torchsong said:

    http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=48599

    Hail and Farewell, Fearless Defenders. You had a good storyline, really solid artwork, amazing covers, and a very small readership.

    :(
  • HexHex Posts: 944
    In my opinion Fearless Defenders wasn't really a "Defenders" book, but it is sad to see another attempt at the Defenders bite the dust. I really wish there was at least one monthly Defenders title that could catch some traction and stick around for a few years. Too bad, I was enjoying that title (although not as much as I thought I would when it was originally solicited).
  • Chuck_MelvilleChuck_Melville Posts: 3,003
    edited November 2013
    Time once again for another round of 'Who's Gonna Get Cancelled?' --and it's a very late round, for which I apologize. (I get my info from the columnists who post to The Beat, and one of them was very, very late.)

    First up: the DC candidates...

    1- Green Team -- Issue 4 leads the pack with only 8,493 copies sold, a monthly drop of 24.3%, and a drop of 89.4% since its first issue. Doomed!
    2- Katana -- #7 falls 8.5% to 10,386 copies. Down 61.6% over six months.
    3- Stormwatch -- falls to 10,969, a one-month drop of 7%, and s six-month drop of 19.7%.
    4- The Movement -- #4 takes a BIG drop of 23.6% to 11,095, and that's 62.1% since the series began. DOOMED!!
    5- Justice League of America's Vibe -- #7 slips to 11,184. That's an 8.6% monthly loss, a 58.7% six-month loss.
    6- Batwing -- continues to fall, but comes up a little on the list thanks to the freefall of the previous titles. Down to 11,584 copies; a mild loss of 4%, and a six-month loss of 8% -- the slowest fall of the group.

    Next... Marvel:

    1- Wolverine: Max -- still falling, down to 16,057, and still selling better than the DC candidates. Monthly drop of 5.2%, six-month drop of 27.3%.
    2- Fearless Defenders -- #8 is slipping away with 16,653, down 4.4% and a full 69% over six months.
    3- X-Men Legacy -- (#15) jumps up three notches with a 2.4% drop to 21.599 copies, one of the smallest drops on the list; six-month drop of 30.5%.
    4- Avengers Arena -- appears on the list for the first time. #14 sold 23,204 copies, which was actually an increase of 1.1%, but still has a six-month fall of 28.7%.
    5- A+X -- #11 sold 23,222 copies, which was a fall of 4.7%. (Hmm. For some reason, I didn't mark down the six-month percentage. Well, let's assume it wasn't good.)
    6- Captain Marvel -- #15 actually gained ground, thanks to Infinity, reaching 23,511 copies. One issue climb of 21.7%, a six-issue rise of 28.1%.

    Now, because this info is getting out so late, there have already been a number of cancellations officially confirmed. For those not keeping score, here they are:

    Katana, Vibe, and Green Team are all axed, never to see even a first anniversary,

    Fearless Defenders is cancelled. So is Avengers Arena, though that may be more due to the story coming to a conclusion. And Captain Marvel is also dead, though it's being brought back in a new series, which will no doubt bounce the numbers up around the 50,000 mark to start. (There's an interesting sales trick: inflate the sales numbers by restarting the series. Marvel's been doing that for a couple of years now.)

    Information here is based on numbers presented in monthly columns by Marc-Oliver Frisch and Paul O'Brien for The Beat.

    EDIT -- I nearly forgot... A+X was also cancelled. A book split between two separate team-ups just wasn't drawing the readers in, and Marvel apparently decided not wait to see if the Cyclops & Captain America multi-parter was going to help revive interest in the book. Not exactly an encouraging note for either story nor book.

    We're gonna have practically a whole new line-up next time around.
  • TorchsongTorchsong Posts: 2,794

    We're gonna have practically a whole new line-up next time around.

    I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing...


  • I'm could have sworn that X-Men Legacy was also confirmed as cancelled somewhere, or that it's wrapping up soon. But I could (and probably am) completely wrong about that.
  • I'm could have sworn that X-Men Legacy was also confirmed as cancelled somewhere, or that it's wrapping up soon. But I could (and probably am) completely wrong about that.

    I think you might be correct, but I haven't been able to find a confirmation. It's solicited through January, but I keep finding oblique references in a few posts that make me think it may have been axed -- but, so far, the announcement (if any) eludes my search skills. Anyone else able to confirm?
  • HexHex Posts: 944
    Nicely done Chuck.
    Love this thread.
  • Hex said:

    Nicely done Chuck.
    Love this thread.

    Thank you.

    To be fair, Messrs. Frisch and O'Brien are doing most of the heavy work; I just cut-and-paste and do a little summing up.


  • I've been busy for most of the holiday season or else I would have posted this a couple of weeks ago, but it's time once again for a spin on the Carousel of Doomed Publications! There's plenty of new candidates this month, and we pick up on DC immediately following a month of Forever Evil:

    The six most troubled DC titles:

    1- The Movement -- Issue 5 rises (or drops) to first place on the list, with 9,110 copies, losing another 17.9% readers -- that a loss of 68.9% since the title began. I think Gail Simone's done a nice job of writing this series, but, literally and figuratively, no one's buying it.
    2- Batwing -- #24 falls 4.1% to 11,114 copies. Down 18.1% over six months.
    3- All-Star Western (#24) enters the lists for the first time with 14,378, a one-month drop of 5.9%, and a six-month drop of 14.6%. I should note that at this point the sales figures aren't quite as desperate and although it's a sign to be worried, I don't think things are bad enough to warrant cancellation just yet. This and the next few books fall into place here simply because so many other books were cancelled recently and there's a void here to be filled. (Keep in mind, that although I'm saying a 'one-month' drop, it's actually a 'one-issue' drop, due to some of these series being co-opted or missing for a month because of FE.)
    4- Larfleeze -- #4 tumbles in with 18,061 sold, a big drop for a Lantern book: 17.7% lost in one month, and 50.7% since the first issue. The Orange Lantern just can't seem to acquire any readers.
    5- Superboy #24 -- A Super title on the cancellation merry-go-round!? It still has sales of 18, 341, but has a one-month drop of 9.4% and six-month fall of 24.3%
    6- Birds Of Prey #24 is the fourth of the original New52 titles to take a slot here -- at 18, 382 copies, it's fallen 5.1% this month, and 15.3% over six months.

    For the record, the confirmed DC cancellations since the last list were: Katana, Stormwatch, Justice League Of America's Vibe (proving that adding the JLA to your book's title is no guarantee that anyone is going to care enough to buy it) and Talon -- which never fell far enough to make it on to the list!

    Next... Marvel:

    1- X-Men Legacy #18 -- Rises to the top of the list by falling even further. 19,767, and still selling better than the DC candidates,it has a monthly drop of 3%, and a six-month drop of 30.4%.
    2- Avengers AI -- #5 virtually leaps onto the list and into second place in the extinction race with sales of 23,146, dropping 10.2% in one month, and 66% since booting up. Not long for this world, I'm thinking.
    3- Superior Foes Of Spider-Man -- I'm not clear as to whether this is a mini-series or an ongoing, but the info suggests the latter so I'm placing it on the list. #4 managed 26,884 in sales, making a drop of 10.6% for the month and 56.2% since the first issue.
    4- Avengers Assemble is the second Avengers book on the calvacade, which perhaps shows a bit of reader fatigue with so many Avengers titles? #20, an Infinity crossover, only did 28,886, a drop of 2.3%, and a six-month fall of 19.7%.
    5- Secret Avengers also makes it on to the list with #10 -- 29,134 copies sold; Infinity helped some by helping the sales climb by 17.1%, but it still has a six-month loss of 24.7%.
    6- Thunderbolts -- #17, also an Infinity drops below its pre-Infinity sales to 28,324, a monthly drop of 3.4% and a six-month fall of 23.4%.

    Information here is based on numbers presented in monthly columns by Marc-Oliver Frisch and Paul O'Brien for The Beat.

  • LibraryBoyLibraryBoy Posts: 1,803
    Damn shame more people aren't reading Superior Foes of Spider-Man. It's really a terrific, funny caper book.
  • HexHex Posts: 944

    Damn shame more people aren't reading Superior Foes of Spider-Man. It's really a terrific, funny caper book.

    Absolutely. Superior Foes of Spider-Man is my favourite book that Marvel is putting out right now (and I buy A LOT of Marvel). Which explains why it is heading for the chopping block... pretty much a written law that if I LOVE it, it will be doomed.

    If you are not reading Superior Foes of Spider-Man, do yourself (and me) a favour and pick it up.
  • Damn shame more people aren't reading Superior Foes of Spider-Man. It's really a terrific, funny caper book.

    Could not agree more. I picked it up after a couple of reviews, since the concept sounded...well, bad. Love the story and art, and hope it can start picking up readers.

    I have heard that Thunderbolts, X-Men Legacy and Avengers Assemble are already canceled, but could not tell you where I either read or heard that. As for the DC books...quite honestly, the last year has told me that DC doesn't care if I buy their books or not. They want to relive the 90's. I don't. We've decided to part ways and see other people.

  • Chuck_MelvilleChuck_Melville Posts: 3,003
    edited January 2014
    I can't directly speak to Superior Foes since I've not been getting it at all, and therefore have no opinion on it... but the numbers say that almost 57% of those who bought the first issue had read it and declared it 'meh'. That says something, though exactly what is open to debate. It can be argued that they just don't know a good story if it rose up and bit them in the backside, but it can also be argued that the story just didn't make any real connection with the larger audience.

    To a very large extent, this could also be said of every other title on the list. How many of these books are really bad and how many are simply not getting the love they deserve?

    And... what exactly is it that all these people walking away from these comics are really looking for anyway?


  • And... what exactly is it that all these people walking away from these comics are really looking for anyway?

    Were they even bought by consumers?

    One of the things that has ALWAYS baffled me is how people buy their comics without giving a damn about getting the complete story. When Superman was a weekly comic spread out over four series (the Triangle years), Superman would outsell the other three books, yet the story would be continued from one book to another.

    Who in their right mind says "I want to read parts 1, 5 and 9 of this 12 part story?"

  • Chuck_MelvilleChuck_Melville Posts: 3,003
    edited January 2014



    And... what exactly is it that all these people walking away from these comics are really looking for anyway?

    Were they even bought by consumers?

    One of the things that has ALWAYS baffled me is how people buy their comics without giving a damn about getting the complete story. When Superman was a weekly comic spread out over four series (the Triangle years), Superman would outsell the other three books, yet the story would be continued from one book to another.

    Who in their right mind says "I want to read parts 1, 5 and 9 of this 12 part story?"

    Five titles, actually, with the quarterly Man Of Tomorrow title... and I never understood that either. I bought them all so I could keep up with the storylines, which I enjoyed. Of course, I knew some fans who only bought the books in order to follow specific artists rather than the stories, so that might explain some discrepancies.
  • I can't directly speak to Superior Foes since I've not been getting it at all, and therefore have no opinion on it... but the numbers say that almost 57% of those who bought the first issue had read it and declared it 'meh'. That says something, though exactly what is open to debate. It can be argued that they just don't know a good story if it rose up and bit them in the backside, but it can also be argued that the story just didn't make any real connection with the larger audience.

    To a very large extent, this could also be said of every other title on the list. How many of these books are really bad and how many are simply not getting the love they deserve?

    And... what exactly is it that all these people walking away from these comics are really looking for anyway?

    I can say that I really enjoyed the first issue of Superior Foes but decided I would get it in trade. I know I'm part of the problem there, but I think a lot of people do this.
  • random73random73 Posts: 2,318

    I can't directly speak to Superior Foes since I've not been getting it at all, and therefore have no opinion on it... but the numbers say that almost 57% of those who bought the first issue had read it and declared it 'meh'. That says something, though exactly what is open to debate. It can be argued that they just don't know a good story if it rose up and bit them in the backside, but it can also be argued that the story just didn't make any real connection with the larger audience.

    To a very large extent, this could also be said of every other title on the list. How many of these books are really bad and how many are simply not getting the love they deserve?

    And... what exactly is it that all these people walking away from these comics are really looking for anyway?

    I can say that I really enjoyed the first issue of Superior Foes but decided I would get it in trade. I know I'm part of the problem there, but I think a lot of people do this.
    It's interesting you say that. I've been debating for some time now wether to switch to straight trades and be done with floppies but if I do I surrender a bit of choice in what gets to make it to trades.
  • CaptShazamCaptShazam Posts: 1,178
    random73 said:

    I can't directly speak to Superior Foes since I've not been getting it at all, and therefore have no opinion on it... but the numbers say that almost 57% of those who bought the first issue had read it and declared it 'meh'. That says something, though exactly what is open to debate. It can be argued that they just don't know a good story if it rose up and bit them in the backside, but it can also be argued that the story just didn't make any real connection with the larger audience.

    To a very large extent, this could also be said of every other title on the list. How many of these books are really bad and how many are simply not getting the love they deserve?

    And... what exactly is it that all these people walking away from these comics are really looking for anyway?

    I can say that I really enjoyed the first issue of Superior Foes but decided I would get it in trade. I know I'm part of the problem there, but I think a lot of people do this.
    It's interesting you say that. I've been debating for some time now wether to switch to straight trades and be done with floppies but if I do I surrender a bit of choice in what gets to make it to trades.
    I get probably 95% of my comics in trade. The value of getting things in trade is starting to diminish.
    Hardcovers for $25 with only 5 issues (All New X Men vol 1) or 5 issues for $20 with only 112 pages and two of the issues are from another series (Daredevil vol 6).

    If you skip the HC and wait for the tpb, it may be a year + of a wait (especially with DC)
  • What gets into trades depends a lot on the sales of the regular issues. Skip them at your peril.
  • What gets into trades depends a lot on the sales of the regular issues. Skip them at your peril.

    It is a pickle. Either I buy the book in a format I don't want so it get published in a format I do want that I won't buy because I rarely buy anything twice, OR I wait and risk the book disappearing before I get a chance to see it collected, because trade sales almost never have bearing on whether a book continues (Runaways being the only example I can think of).
  • ElsiebubElsiebub Posts: 338
    edited January 2014
    This thread is great.

    I've really gotta check out Superior Foes. I'm not a big Spidey fan, and I only heard lukewarm reviews of the first issue, but ever since then I've been hearing a crescendo of praise for this book. I think the first TPB is coming out next month. Hopefully by the time I get to purchase it the series won't be canceled. Wait on those trade numbers, Marvel. C'mon.



    And... what exactly is it that all these people walking away from these comics are really looking for anyway?

    Were they even bought by consumers?
    I wonder that, too. Whenever I see statistics that say "50% of people who bought issue 1 didn't come back for issue 2", I think, "Oh, so that #1 issue had a ton of incentive variant covers, therefore it was way over-ordered by comic shops." Or it could just be that lots of people like to pick up #1 issues, just to try something out, even though under the best circumstances they're really not TOO interested in whatever happens in the series after that point. I've done that before, just bought a #1 issue because #1 issues are generally fun in and of themselves. Compound that with people's habit of purchasing #1 to see if they like the series and then deciding to wait for the trade, and I guess I can see where #1 sales would be vastly inflated.
    One of the things that has ALWAYS baffled me is how people buy their comics without giving a damn about getting the complete story. When Superman was a weekly comic spread out over four series (the Triangle years), Superman would outsell the other three books, yet the story would be continued from one book to another.

    Who in their right mind says "I want to read parts 1, 5 and 9 of this 12 part story?"
    I think a lot of this just comes down to people following creators (particularly artists) rather than stories. If you're reading a certain series because you really like one member of the creative team, then you're less prone to buy other series that might follow the storyline.
  • TorchsongTorchsong Posts: 2,794

    What gets into trades depends a lot on the sales of the regular issues. Skip them at your peril.

    Truthfully, with the Big Two I'm not concerned about this, particularly if there's an "X", "Bat" or "Super" in the title. Barring few exceptions, these books *will* find their way to trade.

    With a limited budget for funnybooks in general, I'd rather channel that money into single issues on independent titles, who genuinely DO live and die by the sword of single title sales. I'd rather throw it at Moonstone, Titan, Valiant, etc...


  • David_DDavid_D Posts: 3,884
    Re: the issue #1 to #2 sales drop, I think it is important to keep in mind that- by the time orders for #2 need to be in- no one has read #1 yet. So that drop is still rooted in speculation on the part of retailers as to what they think the customers are going to think of the new title. It is not a qualitative judgment based on the work. So that drop for Superior Foes only communicates what the retailers expected the drop in interest would be from the first to second issue. It was not informed by sellthrough or what their customers said they thought of the first issue.

    Where you might be able to see a more direct 'I liked #1 enough to now buy #2' would be in digital sales, as those are not speculation, they are a direct publisher-to-consumer sellthrough. But I don't think Comixology releases those sorts of numbers. I think they just announce the top ten or something like that.
  • matchkitJOHNmatchkitJOHN Posts: 1,030
    Out of habit I kept getting Superior Foes and I have been up and down but issues #6 and 7 have made my patience worth it. I really enjoyed #7 which focused on the new Beetle. Can't say more because #6 has a major spoiler concerning her. Best two issues of the run so far.
  • Mr_CosmicMr_Cosmic Posts: 3,200

    Out of habit I kept getting Superior Foes and I have been up and down but issues #6 and 7 have made my patience worth it. I really enjoyed #7 which focused on the new Beetle. Can't say more because #6 has a major spoiler concerning her. Best two issues of the run so far.

    Yes, #6 was as near a perfect comic as I've ever read. So damn funny too.
  • nweathingtonnweathington Posts: 6,748
    David_D said:

    Re: the issue #1 to #2 sales drop, I think it is important to keep in mind that- by the time orders for #2 need to be in- no one has read #1 yet. So that drop is still rooted in speculation on the part of retailers as to what they think the customers are going to think of the new title. It is not a qualitative judgment based on the work. So that drop for Superior Foes only communicates what the retailers expected the drop in interest would be from the first to second issue. It was not informed by sellthrough or what their customers said they thought of the first issue.

    Where you might be able to see a more direct 'I liked #1 enough to now buy #2' would be in digital sales, as those are not speculation, they are a direct publisher-to-consumer sellthrough. But I don't think Comixology releases those sorts of numbers. I think they just announce the top ten or something like that.

    While it is true that the numbers for those first three issues are mostly dependent on what retailers think their sales will be—which as someone who once helped with a store’s ordering, I can tell you that it is a vague science at best—that thought process is completely based on past experience and pre-order numbers.

    You know Batman and X-Men #2s aren’t going to drop off quite as sharply as other #2s, for instance, unless your pre-orders tell you your customers aren’t very confident in the concept, the creative team, or whatever their reasoning for not pre-ordering may be. By the same token, you know that a #2 of a Neil Gaiman series probably isn’t going to drop off as sharply as a book written by someone you’ve never heard of—which in a way is a qualitative judgement, though the quality is based on past work rather than the product in question.

    That’s why we had a tiered discount system (and it's still in place) that went up to 30% off. We wanted to be as confident in our order numbers as possible. The more people we could convince to pre-order, the better.

  • Not Batman Beyond Unlimited. I really like that book. Keep the Batman Beyond love going.
  • David_DDavid_D Posts: 3,884

    David_D said:

    Re: the issue #1 to #2 sales drop, I think it is important to keep in mind that- by the time orders for #2 need to be in- no one has read #1 yet. So that drop is still rooted in speculation on the part of retailers as to what they think the customers are going to think of the new title. It is not a qualitative judgment based on the work. So that drop for Superior Foes only communicates what the retailers expected the drop in interest would be from the first to second issue. It was not informed by sellthrough or what their customers said they thought of the first issue.

    Where you might be able to see a more direct 'I liked #1 enough to now buy #2' would be in digital sales, as those are not speculation, they are a direct publisher-to-consumer sellthrough. But I don't think Comixology releases those sorts of numbers. I think they just announce the top ten or something like that.

    While it is true that the numbers for those first three issues are mostly dependent on what retailers think their sales will be—which as someone who once helped with a store’s ordering, I can tell you that it is a vague science at best—that thought process is completely based on past experience and pre-order numbers.

    You know Batman and X-Men #2s aren’t going to drop off quite as sharply as other #2s, for instance, unless your pre-orders tell you your customers aren’t very confident in the concept, the creative team, or whatever their reasoning for not pre-ordering may be. By the same token, you know that a #2 of a Neil Gaiman series probably isn’t going to drop off as sharply as a book written by someone you’ve never heard of—which in a way is a qualitative judgement, though the quality is based on past work rather than the product in question.

    That’s why we had a tiered discount system (and it's still in place) that went up to 30% off. We wanted to be as confident in our order numbers as possible. The more people we could convince to pre-order, the better.

    I take your point that the strength of the brand, and the reputation of the team that has been hired can and do factor in. And that, of course, the people who do this for a living are going to try to make as informed of a judgment as possible. But that is still a judgment based on past quality, not the quality of the work itself. So, again to address the premise of @Chuck_Melville 's comment that "the numbers say that almost 57% of those who bought the first issue had read it and declared it 'meh'" does not hold, as no one- even those who knew the past work of the creative team- could be using a lot of things to help inform their ordering. But (unless advanced copies were sent months in advance to preview) they hadn't read it.
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