And you are constitutionally incapable of just walking away and leaving them to their delusions, aren't you?
Maybe. I normally jump in to correct facts more so then engage in a discussions about whose better then who. When I read "Bane can beat up the Hulk easily," & "take away Thor's hammer & he's easy to beat; the Flash can do that easily" I feel like I HAVE to correct the facts.
You can't tell me you wouldn't question who states he hates Marvel because they ripoff DC, then admits DC does it with Marvel too?
Or someone stating DC characters have legacy, class, & are icons because Superman & Batman were created at the end of the '30s? The fact Marvel characters were created about 20 years later is apparently a slight against the company.
People don't have to like facts, but you can't rewrite or omit them to "strengthen" your opinion.
And you are constitutionally incapable of just walking away and leaving them to their delusions, aren't you?
Maybe. I normally jump in to correct facts more so then engage in a discussions about whose better then who. When I read "Bane can beat up the Hulk easily," & "take away Thor's hammer & he's easy to beat; the Flash can do that easily" I feel like I HAVE to correct the facts.
You can't tell me you wouldn't question who states he hates Marvel because they ripoff DC, then admits DC does it with Marvel too?
Or someone stating DC characters have legacy, class, & are icons because Superman & Batman were created at the end of the '30s? The fact Marvel characters were created about 20 years later is apparently a slight against the company.
People don't have to like facts, but you can't rewrite or omit them to "strengthen" your opinion.
M
Matt, you're dealing with people who judge the "value" of a character purely by who can beat up whom.
The secret of Marvel's success from the get-go, has been that it's the people with the powers that are interesting, *not* the powers themselves. I contend the reason the Marvel movies work so well is that they have continued to focus on that approach.
The perpetually-adolescent, "who can beat up who" bozos are never gonna understand that.
To a DC Superhero - the powers are a blessing. Something they're happy they have and will use for the betterment of mankind.
To a Marvel Superhero - the powers are a burden. Something they never really asked for but since they have them they might as well use them.
Of course there's exceptions on both sides of the fence, and neither side is "wrong" - but to me that's what distinguishes the companies from each other.
It's why Batman doesn't really fit in with the rest of DC. He has always felt like more of a Marvel character, given that his creation involves a central trauma, and that (at least in many eras of Batman) he feels burdened and tortured. He is not high flying and aspirational.
The February numbers have been dropped, so let’s see who dropped where into what slots, and is in most danger of being dropped by their respective publishers!
One confirmed cancellation that I know of: Larfleeze , who couldn’t manage to hoard enough of a meaningful audience to keep his title viable.
The lists haven’t changed that much otherwise, but here’s some interesting notes: Superior Foes of Spider-Man returns – apparently it was absent last month because the book skipped a month. So, not yet cancelled, but still... And all of the DC titles on the list this month were solidly outsold by Dynamite’s premiere issue of Turok, Dinosaur Hunter and IDW’s My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic -- just to put things in perspective.
As always, a quick reminder that I'm only noting the mainstream DC and Marvel titles here -- no Digital Firsts, Vertigo, Max, Johnny DC or Ultimates since most of these fall under different rules of sales, distribution and cancellation.
First up – the six bottommost DC books:
1- Batwing 28 holds the top slot with 11,786 copies, fall of 5.4% from last month, but still ahead with a 1.7% gain for six months. It’s recent numbers are falling into a steady pattern where it may not sink much further, but isn’t likely to gain much strength either. 2- All-Star Western #28 maintains the second slot with 12,782 units, slipping 3.4%. It has a six-month loss of 13.9%. Cowboy needs help. 3- Superboy #28 moves into the slot vacated by the Orange Lantern, slipping 5.4% to 16,448 copies. Six month drop of 18.7%. The Boy of Steel has seen better days. 4- Triad Of Sin: Phantom Stranger #16 sinks further, selling only 17,012 copies. That’s a monthly loss of 2.4% and six month loss of 15.5%. Oddly, the series is looking starting to look stable right here; this might be its level. 5- Triad Of Sin: Pandora #8 topples to 17,703 copies, losing over a thousand units. That’s a drop of 6.7%, and a six month fall of 48.8%. Shall I call it? DOOMED!! 6- Birds Of Prey returns to the list with #28 now that Gothtopia is over, finding its level with 18,092 units, dropping 6.7%, and falling 6.6% over six months.
Who took the top slots at the other end of the sales spectrum? For DC, the top books continue to be Batman, Justice League and Forver Evil; batting high scores for Marvel is Superior Spider-Man and the debuts of the new Wolverine and Fantastic Four series.
But enough of the winners… let’s return to the Calvacade and see who else is spinning out of control.
Like DC, the Marvel list hasn’t changed all that much, save for a tiny bit of shuffling:
1- Superior Foes Of Spider-Man returns with #8 to dominate the top slot: 19,193 units (which outsells anything in the DC list above). That’s a 8.0 drop from the last issue and a six-issue fall of 44.0%. That’s not good, and that monthly skip doesn’t help. 2- Thunderbolts maintains second place with #22. 23,629 units. Falling 2.7% for the month, and dropping 22.8% over six months. 3- Savage Wolverine moves up (or down, depending on your perspective) a slot with #15, losing some five thousand units to land at 25,190. That’s a 17.1% drop and a six-month loss of 34.1%. That’s a sharp contrast with the debut of the new Wolverine title this month; this book isn’t long for this world. 4- Miracleman #3. This has to be a sucker-punch to the gut for Marvel, as one of the most ballyhooed acquisitions of recent years falls mightily and heavily so quickly! After only three issues, this issue only moved 25,970 units. Not entirely bad, BUT… that’s a single issue drop of 32.6% and a three issue drop of 50.4%!!!! This is the fastest and earliest slide since DC’s - The Movement and - The Green Team tumbled into limbo! ‘Not healthy’ doesn’t even begin to cover it! If the book holds here, it might do fine, but if that rate of decline continues… 5- Nova #13.NOW gained some ground, sputtering upwards to the fifth slot with 26,147 units, gaining 4.4%, but still holding a six-month loss of 18.1%. 6- Mighty Avengers also gained some ground, moving into a more comfortable sixth slot from the #3 position. However, this was due more to the other titles falling faster than MA did, since it only moved 26,512 units. One month drop of 2.5% and a six-month drop of 74.0%! Now… 26 and a hlf thousand copies isn’t all that bad, but that rate of decline is horrendous, so… and I hate to do this, but… I’m calling it, folks: DOOMED!!
Information here is based on numbers presented in monthly columns by Dave Carter and Jason Enright for The Beat.
I'm baffled as to why Marvel decided to release Miracleman month by month (and why they didn't choose to call it Marvelman). I know among comic fans of a certain age it has an almost Watchman-like level of importance, but I have a feeling that group is smaller than people think. I've always wanted to read it, but seeing it doled out so slowly makes me more likely to just hunt down scans of the old issues and read the whole thing now, which is likely what I would have done anyway if it had remained out of print and expensive.
Would you believe I was told Marvel characters had no depth? I told the person Kent is basically an alien orphan with powers & Batman is basically a rich kid who refuses to accept his parents' death. They really have no more or less depth then, say Peter Parker.
And you are constitutionally incapable of just walking away and leaving them to their delusions, aren't you?
Maybe. I normally jump in to correct facts more so then engage in a discussions about whose better then who. When I read "Bane can beat up the Hulk easily," & "take away Thor's hammer & he's easy to beat; the Flash can do that easily" I feel like I HAVE to correct the facts.
You can't tell me you wouldn't question who states he hates Marvel because they ripoff DC, then admits DC does it with Marvel too?
Or someone stating DC characters have legacy, class, & are icons because Superman & Batman were created at the end of the '30s? The fact Marvel characters were created about 20 years later is apparently a slight against the company.
People don't have to like facts, but you can't rewrite or omit them to "strengthen" your opinion.
M
Matt, you're dealing with people who judge the "value" of a character purely by who can beat up whom.
The secret of Marvel's success from the get-go, has been that it's the people with the powers that are interesting, *not* the powers themselves. I contend the reason the Marvel movies work so well is that they have continued to focus on that approach.
The perpetually-adolescent, "who can beat up who" bozos are never gonna understand that.
To quote Lord Humongus, "Just walk away."
I know...but sometimes its fun teaching monkeys about the civilized world. Haha.
In my entire existence as a comic reader, it's always been a given that Marvel's characters had more depth than DC's. Even Batman, the closest DC comes to an emotionally complicated Marvel hero, is a multi-millionaire by birth, who never has to worry about how he's going to finance his war on crime.
Maybe people today are clouded by the movies, with Marvel's line-up aiming more for light-hearted action, and DC's taking themselves (sometimes a little too) seriously. If I showed someone new to comics the Iron Man and Dark Knight trilogies, I can see why they'd walk away thinking Iron Man is just fun, while Batman is about something deep.
4- Miracleman #3. This has to be a sucker-punch to the gut for Marvel, as one of the most ballyhooed acquisitions of recent years falls mightily and heavily so quickly! After only three issues, this issue only moved 25,970 units. Not entirely bad, BUT… that’s a single issue drop of 32.6% and a three issue drop of 50.4%!!!! This is the fastest and earliest slide since DC’s - The Movement and - The Green Team tumbled into limbo! ‘Not healthy’ doesn’t even begin to cover it! If the book holds here, it might do fine, but if that rate of decline continues…
I know this is soley based on sales figures but it doesn't take into account mitigating factors that will keep this book alive.
1. It's currently a reprint book. It has new coloring, but thats still essentially what it is. 2. Its a mature content book. Comparing it's sales to other books with equally mature content, it's sales are very much in line. 3. The first issue had 30 years of hype behind it. Decades of comics fans have heard of this mythical book from one of comics legendary creators and finally had the opportunity to read the it, now that they have had the chance to read it the bloom is off the rose and the numbers are beginning to normalize. 4. It brought Neil Gaiman back into the Marvel fold. Having him right anything for you is always a boon. To stop before they get to his new material would be damaging for them. 5. Since it's reprints, I'm sure Marvel understands that many are probably waiting for the trade and will look at those sales closely. There is not a ton of incentive to waiting for each issue monthly when the spoilers are already out there and have been for decades. 6. Its a prestige project. It would be embarrasing not to see it through. 7. The new Neil Gaiman material is supposedly finite, ending the saga.
4- Miracleman #3. This has to be a sucker-punch to the gut for Marvel, as one of the most ballyhooed acquisitions of recent years falls mightily and heavily so quickly! After only three issues, this issue only moved 25,970 units. Not entirely bad, BUT… that’s a single issue drop of 32.6% and a three issue drop of 50.4%!!!! This is the fastest and earliest slide since DC’s - The Movement and - The Green Team tumbled into limbo! ‘Not healthy’ doesn’t even begin to cover it! If the book holds here, it might do fine, but if that rate of decline continues…
I know this is soley based on sales figures but it doesn't take into account mitigating factors that will keep this book alive.
1. It's currently a reprint book. It has new coloring, but thats still essentially what it is. 2. Its a mature content book. Comparing it's sales to other books with equally mature content, it's sales are very much in line. 3. The first issue had 30 years of hype behind it. Decades of comics fans have heard of this mythical book from one of comics legendary creators and finally had the opportunity to read the it, now that they have had the chance to read it the bloom is off the rose and the numbers are beginning to normalize. 4. It brought Neil Gaiman back into the Marvel fold. Having him right anything for you is always a boon. To stop before they get to his new material would be damaging for them. 5. Since it's reprints, I'm sure Marvel understands that many are probably waiting for the trade and will look at those sales closely. There is not a ton of incentive to waiting for each issue monthly when the spoilers are already out there and have been for decades. 6. Its a prestige project. It would be embarrasing not to see it through. 7. The new Neil Gaiman material is supposedly finite, ending the saga.
I second that. Given that these are periodical reprints of a 30 year old, outside of Marvel continuity, and five bucks a pop, the sales are actually pretty amazing. Even at their current level. There are Vertigo and Image books, brand new ones, that would kill to sell in the 20,000 range with their periodical issues.
I don't see this as a failure on Marvel's part- the fact that they got even this many people to buy the singles ahead of the hardcovers is gravy for them.
5. Since it's reprints, I'm sure Marvel understands that many are probably waiting for the trade and will look at those sales closely. There is not a ton of incentive to waiting for each issue monthly when the spoilers are already out there and have been for decades.
I think this is the main point. Not only are a lot of people waiting for the trade but I believe this will be an evergreen book that will be selling well for Marvel for many years to come.
I don't see this as a failure on Marvel's part- the fact that they got even this many people to buy the singles ahead of the hardcovers is gravy for them.
Hell, I'm buying them and I have all the Eclipse issues and all but one of the trades.
I am betting that the issue by issue release of MiracleMan is to pay for the restoration soi that the trades, hardcovers and omnibus editions don't have to carry that cost.
I am betting that the issue by issue release of MiracleMan is to pay for the restoration soi that the trades, hardcovers and omnibus editions don't have to carry that cost.
Yes.
And a beautiful job of restoration it is, I must say.
1. It's currently a reprint book. It has new coloring, but thats still essentially what it is. 2. Its a mature content book. Comparing it's sales to other books with equally mature content, it's sales are very much in line. 3. The first issue had 30 years of hype behind it. Decades of comics fans have heard of this mythical book from one of comics legendary creators and finally had the opportunity to read the it, now that they have had the chance to read it the bloom is off the rose and the numbers are beginning to normalize. 4. It brought Neil Gaiman back into the Marvel fold. Having him right anything for you is always a boon. To stop before they get to his new material would be damaging for them. 5. Since it's reprints, I'm sure Marvel understands that many are probably waiting for the trade and will look at those sales closely. There is not a ton of incentive to waiting for each issue monthly when the spoilers are already out there and have been for decades. 6. Its a prestige project. It would be embarrasing not to see it through. 7. The new Neil Gaiman material is supposedly finite, ending the saga.
This is insightful analysis and I think spot-on. I also believe that this book is going to go all the way to its planned conclusion and then the trades will sell for many years to come. I am one of those waiting for the trade. Marvel probably hoped for bigger numbers, but these aren't anything to be losing sleep over, yet.
It is a shame Mighty Avengers has already taken such a hit that it might not be able to recover. Issue #6 started a new creative team and has been great. Of course, subtracting Greg Land from anything makes it better.
It brought Neil Gaiman back into the Marvel fold. Having him right anything for you is always a boon. To stop before they get to his new material would be damaging for them.
I now have a mental image of Neil Gaiman as a janitor at Marvel, walking about and straightening up anything that was jarred out of position...
Marvel probably hoped for bigger numbers, but these aren't anything to be losing sleep over, yet.
It wasn't the numbers that I thought was worrisome but the rate of decline from the sales of the first issue. That was a huge drop, especially when it's only the third issue. If that continues, it'll be a problem; if the sales level off where they were at #3, not so much a problem.
I grant you, though, that the arguments regarding it being a reprint do make a lot of sense, though this is an Alan Moore-written series that has not seen the light of day since its first publication decades ago; I expected stronger sales, and I'm sure Marvel did as well. (Perhaps the omission of Moore's name hurt sales?)
It brought Neil Gaiman back into the Marvel fold. Having him right anything for you is always a boon. To stop before they get to his new material would be damaging for them.
I now have a mental image of Neil Gaiman as a janitor at Marvel, walking about and straightening up anything that was jarred out of position...
I am betting that the issue by issue release of MiracleMan is to pay for the restoration soi that the trades, hardcovers and omnibus editions don't have to carry that cost.
Kind of like they did with Tales of Asgard, which I believe also had low sales, but resulted in giving us a really nice looking oversized hardcover.
I'm still curious as to just how low sales could drop before we get to the new stuff. I would imagine Miracleman will take longer than Asgard to finish its monthly run.
I am always surprised to see that All Star Western has not been cancelled yet. I really do not know why they are keeping this book around as long as they have.
I am always surprised to see that All Star Western has not been cancelled yet. I really do not know why they are keeping this book around as long as they have.
Hey, when Jonah Hex 2 comes out, all that patience will pay off.
I am always surprised to see that All Star Western has not been cancelled yet. I really do not know why they are keeping this book around as long as they have.
Hey, when Jonah Hex 2 comes out, all that patience will pay off.
Starring Clint Eastwood in his final western. (He will have a cameo in Superman vs Batman).
I am always surprised to see that All Star Western has not been cancelled yet. I really do not know why they are keeping this book around as long as they have.
I always heard that it does very well internationally. It's the same reason DC can do a Looney Tunes comic that sell poorly, it does very well overseas, so any money they make here in the US is gravy.
Comments
You can't tell me you wouldn't question who states he hates Marvel because they ripoff DC, then admits DC does it with Marvel too?
Or someone stating DC characters have legacy, class, & are icons because Superman & Batman were created at the end of the '30s? The fact Marvel characters were created about 20 years later is apparently a slight against the company.
People don't have to like facts, but you can't rewrite or omit them to "strengthen" your opinion.
M
The secret of Marvel's success from the get-go, has been that it's the people with the powers that are interesting, *not* the powers themselves. I contend the reason the Marvel movies work so well is that they have continued to focus on that approach.
The perpetually-adolescent, "who can beat up who" bozos are never gonna understand that.
To quote Lord Humongus, "Just walk away."
To a DC Superhero - the powers are a blessing. Something they're happy they have and will use for the betterment of mankind.
To a Marvel Superhero - the powers are a burden. Something they never really asked for but since they have them they might as well use them.
Of course there's exceptions on both sides of the fence, and neither side is "wrong" - but to me that's what distinguishes the companies from each other.
It's why Batman doesn't really fit in with the rest of DC. He has always felt like more of a Marvel character, given that his creation involves a central trauma, and that (at least in many eras of Batman) he feels burdened and tortured. He is not high flying and aspirational.
If so, the current "visionaries" steering the DCU sure seem to have lost any sense of that dynamic.
One confirmed cancellation that I know of: Larfleeze , who couldn’t manage to hoard enough of a meaningful audience to keep his title viable.
The lists haven’t changed that much otherwise, but here’s some interesting notes: Superior Foes of Spider-Man returns – apparently it was absent last month because the book skipped a month. So, not yet cancelled, but still... And all of the DC titles on the list this month were solidly outsold by Dynamite’s premiere issue of Turok, Dinosaur Hunter and IDW’s My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic -- just to put things in perspective.
As always, a quick reminder that I'm only noting the mainstream DC and Marvel titles here -- no Digital Firsts, Vertigo, Max, Johnny DC or Ultimates since most of these fall under different rules of sales, distribution and cancellation.
First up – the six bottommost DC books:
1- Batwing 28 holds the top slot with 11,786 copies, fall of 5.4% from last month, but still ahead with a 1.7% gain for six months. It’s recent numbers are falling into a steady pattern where it may not sink much further, but isn’t likely to gain much strength either.
2- All-Star Western #28 maintains the second slot with 12,782 units, slipping 3.4%. It has a six-month loss of 13.9%. Cowboy needs help.
3- Superboy #28 moves into the slot vacated by the Orange Lantern, slipping 5.4% to 16,448 copies. Six month drop of 18.7%. The Boy of Steel has seen better days.
4- Triad Of Sin: Phantom Stranger #16 sinks further, selling only 17,012 copies. That’s a monthly loss of 2.4% and six month loss of 15.5%. Oddly, the series is looking starting to look stable right here; this might be its level.
5- Triad Of Sin: Pandora #8 topples to 17,703 copies, losing over a thousand units. That’s a drop of 6.7%, and a six month fall of 48.8%. Shall I call it? DOOMED!!
6- Birds Of Prey returns to the list with #28 now that Gothtopia is over, finding its level with 18,092 units, dropping 6.7%, and falling 6.6% over six months.
Who took the top slots at the other end of the sales spectrum? For DC, the top books continue to be Batman, Justice League and Forver Evil; batting high scores for Marvel is Superior Spider-Man and the debuts of the new Wolverine and Fantastic Four series.
But enough of the winners… let’s return to the Calvacade and see who else is spinning out of control.
Like DC, the Marvel list hasn’t changed all that much, save for a tiny bit of shuffling:
1- Superior Foes Of Spider-Man returns with #8 to dominate the top slot: 19,193 units (which outsells anything in the DC list above). That’s a 8.0 drop from the last issue and a six-issue fall of 44.0%. That’s not good, and that monthly skip doesn’t help.
2- Thunderbolts maintains second place with #22. 23,629 units. Falling 2.7% for the month, and dropping 22.8% over six months.
3- Savage Wolverine moves up (or down, depending on your perspective) a slot with #15, losing some five thousand units to land at 25,190. That’s a 17.1% drop and a six-month loss of 34.1%. That’s a sharp contrast with the debut of the new Wolverine title this month; this book isn’t long for this world.
4- Miracleman #3. This has to be a sucker-punch to the gut for Marvel, as one of the most ballyhooed acquisitions of recent years falls mightily and heavily so quickly! After only three issues, this issue only moved 25,970 units. Not entirely bad, BUT… that’s a single issue drop of 32.6% and a three issue drop of 50.4%!!!! This is the fastest and earliest slide since DC’s - The Movement and - The Green Team tumbled into limbo! ‘Not healthy’ doesn’t even begin to cover it! If the book holds here, it might do fine, but if that rate of decline continues…
5- Nova #13.NOW gained some ground, sputtering upwards to the fifth slot with 26,147 units, gaining 4.4%, but still holding a six-month loss of 18.1%.
6- Mighty Avengers also gained some ground, moving into a more comfortable sixth slot from the #3 position. However, this was due more to the other titles falling faster than MA did, since it only moved 26,512 units. One month drop of 2.5% and a six-month drop of 74.0%! Now… 26 and a hlf thousand copies isn’t all that bad, but that rate of decline is horrendous, so… and I hate to do this, but… I’m calling it, folks: DOOMED!!
Information here is based on numbers presented in monthly columns by Dave Carter and Jason Enright for The Beat.
Sadly... things don't look good for my beloved Superior Foes Of Spider-Man.
M
M
Ironic that, Superman fans thinking Captain America is boring.
Maybe people today are clouded by the movies, with Marvel's line-up aiming more for light-hearted action, and DC's taking themselves (sometimes a little too) seriously. If I showed someone new to comics the Iron Man and Dark Knight trilogies, I can see why they'd walk away thinking Iron Man is just fun, while Batman is about something deep.
1. It's currently a reprint book. It has new coloring, but thats still essentially what it is.
2. Its a mature content book. Comparing it's sales to other books with equally mature content, it's sales are very much in line.
3. The first issue had 30 years of hype behind it. Decades of comics fans have heard of this mythical book from one of comics legendary creators and finally had the opportunity to read the it, now that they have had the chance to read it the bloom is off the rose and the numbers are beginning to normalize.
4. It brought Neil Gaiman back into the Marvel fold. Having him right anything for you is always a boon. To stop before they get to his new material would be damaging for them.
5. Since it's reprints, I'm sure Marvel understands that many are probably waiting for the trade and will look at those sales closely. There is not a ton of incentive to waiting for each issue monthly when the spoilers are already out there and have been for decades.
6. Its a prestige project. It would be embarrasing not to see it through.
7. The new Neil Gaiman material is supposedly finite, ending the saga.
I don't see this as a failure on Marvel's part- the fact that they got even this many people to buy the singles ahead of the hardcovers is gravy for them.
I'll probably buy the new trades, too.
And a beautiful job of restoration it is, I must say.
I grant you, though, that the arguments regarding it being a reprint do make a lot of sense, though this is an Alan Moore-written series that has not seen the light of day since its first publication decades ago; I expected stronger sales, and I'm sure Marvel did as well. (Perhaps the omission of Moore's name hurt sales?)
I'm still curious as to just how low sales could drop before we get to the new stuff. I would imagine Miracleman will take longer than Asgard to finish its monthly run.