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Marvel Studios Marvel’s Phase 3 Announcements

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  • bamfbamfbamfbamf Posts: 718
    edited October 2015
    let's not go too far now and discount the fact that people have a better perspective and knowledge to tell the story of people they are similar to... just saying...
  • bamfbamfbamfbamf Posts: 718
    authors and creative types always say they write stories best when they have personal experience with it the subject matter
  • MattMatt Posts: 4,457
    That's why I stated "best writer & director" to tell the story. Joe Johnston worked well for First Avenger. I'm not certain he would've worked well for the story of Winter Soldier.

    M
  • Good on Howard. Somehow I doubt that Howard Mackie is going to get the same backlash Matt Damon did when he didn't think diversity behind the camera mattered as much as merit either...

    http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/tv/matt-damon-slammed-diversity-comments-greenlight-article-1.2361077

    Why would Howard Mackie even be commenting? Is someone adapting his 90s Spider-man?
  • bralinatorbralinator Posts: 5,967

    Good on Howard. Somehow I doubt that Howard Mackie is going to get the same backlash Matt Damon did when he didn't think diversity behind the camera mattered as much as merit either...

    http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/tv/matt-damon-slammed-diversity-comments-greenlight-article-1.2361077

    Why would Howard Mackie even be commenting? Is someone adapting his 90s Spider-man?
    LOL!

    My apologies to Anthony :)
  • bamfbamfbamfbamf Posts: 718
    http://www.ew.com/article/2015/11/09/bradley-cooper-guardians-galaxy-sequel-spoiler

    Did Bradley Cooper just spill a major Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 reveal?
    Update: According to the film's director, definitely not.
  • bralinatorbralinator Posts: 5,967
    Looks like there may be some complications in bringing the Defenders into Infinity War. One of the directors actually compares it to the FOX vs Marvel situation.

  • RepoManRepoMan Posts: 327
    http://screenrant.com/black-panther-marvel-movie-director-ryan-coogler/

    I mean - you know - not like there's only one side that should get a link and then it's end of discussion. Sheesh.
  • bralinatorbralinator Posts: 5,967
    This is for @bamfbamf
    I Don't Want an Asian-American Iron Fist
    I am an Asian-American pop culture enthusiast who longs for greater diversity in all respects, and greater representation of my own culture on screen and in comics, where Asian-Americans are often much too difficult to find. It's a major problem and something I've opined passionately about for years... CBR Managing Editor Albert ChingComic Book Resources
    Personally, I'm hoping Shang-Chi is returning now that Marvel has gotten the rights back to print the new omnibuses.
  • This is for @bamfbamf

    I Don't Want an Asian-American Iron Fist
    I am an Asian-American pop culture enthusiast who longs for greater diversity in all respects, and greater representation of my own culture on screen and in comics, where Asian-Americans are often much too difficult to find. It's a major problem and something I've opined passionately about for years... CBR Managing Editor Albert ChingComic Book Resources
    Personally, I'm hoping Shang-Chi is returning now that Marvel has gotten the rights back to print the new omnibuses.
    I'd be very surprised if the licensing agreement with the Sax Rohmer people is anything more than one-time printing rights. And I’d be even more surprised, if/when Shang-Chi shows up in television and/or film, if the Fu Manchu characters aren't written out of his backstory and replaced with similar but technically original characters.
  • bralinatorbralinator Posts: 5,967


    I'd be very surprised if the licensing agreement with the Sax Rohmer people is anything more than one-time printing rights. And I’d be even more surprised, if/when Shang-Chi shows up in television and/or film, if the Fu Manchu characters aren't written out of his backstory and replaced with similar but technically original characters.

    One time printing rights is probably the case and the explanation for printing these over four omnibus editions. They look like they're collecting every single appearance, from Giant Size Spider-Man #2 to the more modern Master of Kung-Fu series, They're going all in.

    However, I could easily see them including Shang-Chi in the Netflix universe. I don't believe that Fu Manchu is a necessary element to bringing Master of Kung-Fu into that medium. I think you're correct that they would be replaced with similar characters.
  • David_DDavid_D Posts: 3,884
    edited December 2015
    My guess? They punt on Iron Fist and Shang-Chi. And continue to replace the originally announced slate/ Defenders lineup with things that are popping. Like, if people respond to the Elektra that we see in Daredevil S2, I could see her getting a series instead. Ditto with The Punisher.

    Iron Fist as a premise, regardless of what he has actually been like in the comics, carries a lot of cultural appropriation/ colonialism baggage. And Shang-Chi/ Master of Kung-Fu, again, despite what the comics actually are, from a distance looks like 70s exploitation. I just think they will punt and go with something that is a more recognizable brand, and easier sell.

    But, we'll see. I know I will try any of their Netflix shows, so I will be there (eventually- we're excited for Jessica Jones, but haven't had the time yet) for whatever they choose to make.
  • DoctorDoomDoctorDoom Posts: 2,586
    Wanna give Shang Chi an evil dad? Make him the son of the REAL Mandarin.
  • bamfbamfbamfbamf Posts: 718
    can Moon Knight be Asian then?

    Coz he's much cooler than Iron Fist anyway
  • bralinatorbralinator Posts: 5,967
    bamfbamf said:

    can Moon Knight be Asian then?

    Coz he's much cooler than Iron Fist anyway

    He's cool, but he's already a minority. Marc Spector is Israeli-American, more commonly known as Jewish. Don't know if Marvel is ready to race-swap that.
  • bamfbamfbamfbamf Posts: 718
    a jew who worships an egyptian god?

    wtf...
  • bralinatorbralinator Posts: 5,967
    I thought we were discussing race, not religious affiliation.

    Marc Spector's father was a Jewish rabbi, but Spector does not practice Judaism. He is a convert to a unique form of ancient Egyptian classical religion centering on the ancient Egyptian moon god Khonshu.

    Moon Knight has generally (but not always) been portrayed as having a strong belief that Khonshu is the source of his powers a strong belief that he has a responsibility to serve Khonshu. Whether this is voluntary or has been thrust upon him has been open to debate.
  • HexHex Posts: 944
    bamfbamf said:

    Coz he's much cooler than Iron Fist anyway

    Subjective. I can appreciate Moon Knight, but I much prefer Iron Fist.


  • Man. It is both a wonderful and exhausting time to be a geek.

    Also? "Untitled Boba Fett Movie" is the name of my new band.

    So, you will be hugely poplar, despite not being any good at singing or playing or anything to do with being a band...

  • nweathingtonnweathington Posts: 6,748
    edited January 2016
    zikaatlaw said:

    "Untitled Boba Fett Movie" is the name of my new band.

    So, you will be hugely poplar, despite not being any good at singing or playing or anything to do with being a band...

    You just have to look cool doing it.
  • bralinatorbralinator Posts: 5,967
    So, they've finally cast Iron Fist for the Netflix series, and a few people are mad that it's a white guy.

    The New York Post‘s Reed Tucker dismisses that perspective, saying “if you change the character, you change the story.”“Race and gender are crucial components of character. The solution to Hollywood’s diversity crisis isn’t to start making every straight, white male character female or gay or Pacific Islander or black or Latino. It’s to create new shows about fully formed characters of every color and stripe.”
    image

    Hopefully, it continues Marvel/Netflix's track record of adapting the stories to the episodic format. That's really all I care about.
  • BrackBrack Posts: 868

    So, they've finally cast Iron Fist for the Netflix series, and a few people are mad that it's a white guy.

    The New York Post‘s Reed Tucker dismisses that perspective, saying “if you change the character, you change the story.”“Race and gender are crucial components of character. The solution to Hollywood’s diversity crisis isn’t to start making every straight, white male character female or gay or Pacific Islander or black or Latino. It’s to create new shows about fully formed characters of every color and stripe.”

    image

    Hopefully, it continues Marvel/Netflix's track record of adapting the stories to the episodic format. That's really all I care about.
    Marvel had no problem changing the 1930's throwback racist caricature of the Mandarin, so they really shouldn't have a problem changing Iron Fist's 1930's throwback racist origin. Even if they are keeping him a white guy, I'm betting he won't have Roy Thomas' pulp-cribbed white savior origin.
  • bralinatorbralinator Posts: 5,967
    Brack said:

    Iron Fist's 1930's throwback racist origin

    Wow! That's the first time I've ever heard that Iron Fist's origin was "1930's throwback racist." How did you reach that conclusion?

    Seems to me the only character in the 70's that was white and any good at martial arts was Chuck Norris and he got beaten up by Bruce Lee. The calls to re-make Iron Fist as an Asian more closely fit the definition of racial stereotyping in my humble opinion.
  • BrackBrack Posts: 868

    Brack said:

    Iron Fist's 1930's throwback racist origin

    Wow! That's the first time I've ever heard that Iron Fist's origin was "1930's throwback racist." How did you reach that conclusion?
    How can you not?

    Iron Fist was the result of getting Roy Thomas to create a kung fu cash-in, and rather than use actual 1970's martial arts films as inspiration, he used the orientalism and white saviour tropes of pre-WW2 pulps instead.

    He's the Green Lama or any of those other "white guy goes to Tibet and does the Tibetan mystic powers better than anyone born there, because he's white" pulp stories. Dr Strange technically has the same problem, but as that was a better comic, it's less glaringly awful.

    Once later writers made things a little modern, the character worked better, but that origin stinks and as a concept he's probably the worst of all the Marvel 70's exploitation cash-in characters.
  • Brack said:

    Iron Fist's 1930's throwback racist origin

    Wow! That's the first time I've ever heard that Iron Fist's origin was "1930's throwback racist." How did you reach that conclusion?

    Seems to me the only character in the 70's that was white and any good at martial arts was Chuck Norris and he got beaten up by Bruce Lee. The calls to re-make Iron Fist as an Asian more closely fit the definition of racial stereotyping in my humble opinion.
    It wasn’t intended to be racist, I’m sure, but it follows the White Savior Complex precepts that were predominant in colonial and post-colonial fiction, and which still linger today. Simple fix: Make the inhabitants of K’un-Lun not all look and act like the stereotypical portrayals of Asians in Western fiction, which the comic unfortunately did.
  • David_DDavid_D Posts: 3,884
    edited February 2016
    It's one of the reasons why I've been surprised that Iron Fist has been on the TV slate, and even more surprised that it is one of the first three to hit air. I am sure they will retool the origin, but the origin is pretty fraught.

    And, at least on the face of it, it feels too expensive for what they look to be spending on these Netflix series. When Iron Fist has worked for me in the past, he has usually been world-spanning. He is a character with a foot in two worlds, and one of them is a magical one. I worry that, on the Netflix-content budget, and (potentially) saddled with some of the cultural appropriation baggage of the premise, that this will come off like a syndicated late 80s/ early 90s action show, that it will look cheap, and feel less sophisticated of a show than what we've come to expect from Marvel Studios, and these Netflix shows so far.

    But, that said... they haven't let me down yet. Based on Daredevil and Jessica Jones, I am going to expect that they are actually out ahead of these concerns, and will make it work. But, again, I am just surprised they are doing this one.

    EDIT- One last reason I have been surprised for Marvel Studios to give this character the push they are: He is, at the same time, too much like Batman, and his origin and the world of magic and other-planar stuff is likely to already be covered by Doctor Strange (and you can easily get into Ninja Magic via Daredevil).

    It just feels like they could have given this slot to a character that would be more distinctive. But, we'll see what they do with him. I'll watch.
  • Mr_CosmicMr_Cosmic Posts: 3,200
    I've never thought his origin is racist. Of course I also don't waste time looking for things that might be offensive.
  • nweathingtonnweathington Posts: 6,748
    Mr_Cosmic said:

    I've never thought his origin is racist. Of course I also don't waste time looking for things that might be offensive.

    Like I said, I'm sure it wasn't meant that way. It was just an easy fallback to old (and misguided) tropes. But intent doesn't change the fact that the story is based on tropes that came from racist ideologies. I didn't think it was racist either when I read it as a six-year-old. But once I was older and my perspective and base of knowledge had broadened, a rereading of my favorite childhood comics made it painfully clear.

    I've never gone out looking for things that might be offensive either. They just keep turning up in things I read, in shows I watch, and in everyday life. Just because I enjoy much of Rudyard Kipling’s writing, I'm not going to close my eyes to the fact that his ideas on the White Man’s Burden were insulting and degrading at best, whatever his intentions may have been. Likewise, I can enjoy Iron Fist as a hero in meaningless escapist fantasy while recognizing that his origin is problematic.
  • bralinatorbralinator Posts: 5,967
    "You can chalk up his origins to white imperialism or privilege or whatever you want. But ultimately he’s been around for nearly forty years; he is what he is. To take modern day sensibilities and layer it onto a character created in the 1970s in order to completely change the character is ridiculous. Especially when those sensibilities are so narrowly curtailed along racial cliches that the thought is, “He knows kung fu; therefore he must be Asian!” Peter David
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