@Matt I get that. And I don't want any character to get defined by any one aspect. Just as I think the poorest writing for Midnighter and Apollo have been the writers who dwelt too much on their sexuality. Or Batman writers who dwelt too much on the death of his parents instead of the present story. At the end of the day, bad writing is bad writing. And hopefully this will not be that.
But I also think- when we reflect on what does or doesn't interest us about a character- that we have to keep in mind the desire for representation in entertainment was not really something guys like you and I had to deal with growing up, you know what I mean? As kids, when arguably it matters most, and even as adults, we are spoiled for choice when it comes to sharing traits with the characters in our fiction. The barrier for entry for relating to the character has always been lower for us than some readers.
So when a series is being added that might be of interest to a reader- maybe particularly a young reader (and we always say we want more of those!) who wants to read a character that they can relate to in a certain way, then I am all for anything that helps connect that reader with that work. Should the work be only about the ethnicity, gender, or religion of the character? Of course not. Because bad writing is bad writing. But do we really think it will be?
And I can understand why- at this point in the character's pre-history, when the ethnicity, gender, and religion of the character is getting all the attention, that it can seem like that is all the character is going to be about. But that is because we don't have the work yet. There is no story yet. So the narrative to hook the press is "a boundary is getting broken here". And that gets picked up, because it is of interest to them. You can try to announce to the press "there is a new comic, and it is going to be really, really great, with excellent art and writing". In fact, there are press releases like that all the time, but they don't usually get any pickup outside of comics sites.
But, here's the thing- just because they may be playing to what the press is going to pick up on in the promotional phase doesn't mean that will be the only thing focused on in the work. Because the concern that has been expressed here of 'I don't want it to ONLY be about the fact that the character is x, y, z..." is a common concern. And they are out to add new readers and keep existing ones. Not to drive anyone away. I think publishers know better than that. In fact, given the reaction that they tend to get from their existing readership, I think they are smart enough to know that they are fighting the expectation that a book will put identity politics before story. I think they know it is on them to prove that is not the case. But, again, whether they succeed we won't know until we have the work.
Remember, a lot of these same discussions were had around the Miles Morales Spider-Man. We are now two years into stories with him. Are all his stories about being bi-racial? Or are they stories mostly about being the new(ish) Spider-Man?
I dig it, especially because it keeps the name in play (good) without demoting Carol (even better) and it furthers the idea of the superheroic legacy (a concept I have always loved and one Marvel hasn't always done as much with as DC).
Also, I do think her gender, race, and religion are worth noting because in a time where superhero publishers are always talking about how much they want their comics to reflect the real world, this is the one of the biggest ways they can go about making it happen. Real people can't fly or lift buildings, but nor are they all (or mostly) white, male, or straight.
Could these press announcements be written better? Oh hell yes. I still cringe when I think back to all that "lipstick lesbian" copy in the press releases announcing the introduction of the Kate Kane Batwoman a while back. As long as there are comic book press releases, there will always be hyperbole, back patting, and the chance for publishers to misinterpret the importance of their own actions. Particularly when it's Marvel, because everyone's still trying to be Stan Lee.
This is over the top and it completely ignores other Marvel female Muslim heroes like Dust or Excalibur (from MI-13), but at the same time, neither of them headlined their own book. This may not be to your taste, but that doesn't change the fact that it's an important step. I'm interested in the concept, I think the writer is interesting, and I'm looking forward to check this out.
I agree with all of that, though (and this is a totally wonkish point on my part) the "lipstick lesbian" copy was not in a DC press release. Rather it is how the Times reporter who first announced that the character was coming described her: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/28/arts/28gustines.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
His words, not a press release. But then that article got reblogged and off it went.
Wonk away, David (wait...). I legitimately didn't realize that! Pretty sure I only ever read that Times article (and the many that quoted it) and just sort of assumed that wording was used in the actual release, given the state of funnybook hucksterism in general and DC's weird sexual politics at that time in particular.
@Matt I get that. And I don't want any character to get defined by any one aspect. Just as I think the poorest writing for Midnighter and Apollo have been the writers who dwelt too much on their sexuality. Or Batman writers who dwelt too much on the death of his parents instead of the present story. At the end of the day, bad writing is bad writing. And hopefully this will not be that.
But I also think- when we reflect on what does or doesn't interest us about a character- that we have to keep in mind the desire for representation in entertainment was not really something guys like you and I had to deal with growing up, you know what I mean? As kids, when arguably it matters most, and even as adults, we are spoiled for choice when it comes to sharing traits with the characters in our fiction. The barrier for entry for relating to the character has always been lower for us than some readers.
So when a series is being added that might be of interest to a reader- maybe particularly a young reader (and we always say we want more of those!) who wants to read a character that they can relate to in a certain way, then I am all for anything that helps connect that reader with that work. Should the work be only about the ethnicity, gender, or religion of the character? Of course not. Because bad writing is bad writing. But do we really think it will be?
And I can understand why- at this point in the character's pre-history, when the ethnicity, gender, and religion of the character is getting all the attention, that it can seem like that is all the character is going to be about. But that is because we don't have the work yet. There is no story yet. So the narrative to hook the press is "a boundary is getting broken here". And that gets picked up, because it is of interest to them. You can try to announce to the press "there is a new comic, and it is going to be really, really great, with excellent art and writing". In fact, there are press releases like that all the time, but they don't usually get any pickup outside of comics sites.
But, here's the thing- just because they may be playing to what the press is going to pick up on in the promotional phase doesn't mean that will be the only thing focused on in the work. Because the concern that has been expressed here of 'I don't want it to ONLY be about the fact that the character is x, y, z..." is a common concern. And they are out to add new readers and keep existing ones. Not to drive anyone away. I think publishers know better than that. In fact, given the reaction that they tend to get from their existing readership, I think they are smart enough to know that they are fighting the expectation that a book will put identity politics before story. I think they know it is on them to prove that is not the case. But, again, whether they succeed we won't know until we have the work.
Remember, a lot of these same discussions were had around the Miles Morales Spider-Man. We are now two years into stories with him. Are all his stories about being bi-racial? Or are they stories mostly about being the new(ish) Spider-Man?
@David_D, I understand what you're referencing & as a mostly WASP person, I feel this can lead to tightrope discussions because what could be interpreted isn't what you, I, or someone else might actually mean.
In any event, you are right that we're discussing a press release verse actual material. I presume MM Spidey doesn't have bi-racial stories; I can't stand Bendis' writing style except for All-New X-Men.
I get its a way to bring in Non-WASP readers. And bad writing can kill any character no matter how interesting he/she originally was. Personally, I've always like to see character develop from the stories rather then a press release. If Kathy Kane was revealed to be a lesbian in her third appearance with a build up to the revelation, I think it reads better. If you know it going into her first appearance, then there already something potentially defining her.
I guess I approach people, real & fictional, like this:
Our past & beliefs make us who we are, they don't define us.
@Matt I get that. And I don't want any character to get defined by any one aspect. Just as I think the poorest writing for Midnighter and Apollo have been the writers who dwelt too much on their sexuality. Or Batman writers who dwelt too much on the death of his parents instead of the present story. At the end of the day, bad writing is bad writing. And hopefully this will not be that.
But I also think- when we reflect on what does or doesn't interest us about a character- that we have to keep in mind the desire for representation in entertainment was not really something guys like you and I had to deal with growing up, you know what I mean? As kids, when arguably it matters most, and even as adults, we are spoiled for choice when it comes to sharing traits with the characters in our fiction. The barrier for entry for relating to the character has always been lower for us than some readers.
So when a series is being added that might be of interest to a reader- maybe particularly a young reader (and we always say we want more of those!) who wants to read a character that they can relate to in a certain way, then I am all for anything that helps connect that reader with that work. Should the work be only about the ethnicity, gender, or religion of the character? Of course not. Because bad writing is bad writing. But do we really think it will be?
And I can understand why- at this point in the character's pre-history, when the ethnicity, gender, and religion of the character is getting all the attention, that it can seem like that is all the character is going to be about. But that is because we don't have the work yet. There is no story yet. So the narrative to hook the press is "a boundary is getting broken here". And that gets picked up, because it is of interest to them. You can try to announce to the press "there is a new comic, and it is going to be really, really great, with excellent art and writing". In fact, there are press releases like that all the time, but they don't usually get any pickup outside of comics sites.
But, here's the thing- just because they may be playing to what the press is going to pick up on in the promotional phase doesn't mean that will be the only thing focused on in the work. Because the concern that has been expressed here of 'I don't want it to ONLY be about the fact that the character is x, y, z..." is a common concern. And they are out to add new readers and keep existing ones. Not to drive anyone away. I think publishers know better than that. In fact, given the reaction that they tend to get from their existing readership, I think they are smart enough to know that they are fighting the expectation that a book will put identity politics before story. I think they know it is on them to prove that is not the case. But, again, whether they succeed we won't know until we have the work.
Remember, a lot of these same discussions were had around the Miles Morales Spider-Man. We are now two years into stories with him. Are all his stories about being bi-racial? Or are they stories mostly about being the new(ish) Spider-Man?
@David_D, I understand what you're referencing & as a mostly WASP person, I feel this can lead to tightrope discussions because what could be interpreted isn't what you, I, or someone else might actually mean.
In any event, you are right that we're discussing a press release verse actual material. I presume MM Spidey doesn't have bi-racial stories; I can't stand Bendis' writing style except for All-New X-Men.
I get its a way to bring in Non-WASP readers. And bad writing can kill any character no matter how interesting he/she originally was. Personally, I've always like to see character develop from the stories rather then a press release. If Kathy Kane was revealed to be a lesbian in her third appearance with a build up to the revelation, I think it reads better. If you know it going into her first appearance, then there already something potentially defining her.
I guess I approach people, real & fictional, like this:
Our past & beliefs make us who we are, they don't define us.
M
I get all that. Sadly, given how toxic of an environment monthly comics are to the new, it may be that a character only gets time to develop if they buy that time. And generating initial buzz or using the identity politics of the character to bring in new readers or stake holders might be the only way that the series opens at a number big enough to get time for the character to develop.
I will pick up the book. I think a lot of us know the struggles of any minority or female led book to make it in the current comic market. I welcome any mainstream coverage that could bring in new readers. It only takes a few thousand here and there to decide the fate of a comic.
@Matt I get that. And I don't want any character to get defined by any one aspect. Just as I think the poorest writing for Midnighter and Apollo have been the writers who dwelt too much on their sexuality. Or Batman writers who dwelt too much on the death of his parents instead of the present story. At the end of the day, bad writing is bad writing. And hopefully this will not be that.
But I also think- when we reflect on what does or doesn't interest us about a character- that we have to keep in mind the desire for representation in entertainment was not really something guys like you and I had to deal with growing up, you know what I mean? As kids, when arguably it matters most, and even as adults, we are spoiled for choice when it comes to sharing traits with the characters in our fiction. The barrier for entry for relating to the character has always been lower for us than some readers.
So when a series is being added that might be of interest to a reader- maybe particularly a young reader (and we always say we want more of those!) who wants to read a character that they can relate to in a certain way, then I am all for anything that helps connect that reader with that work. Should the work be only about the ethnicity, gender, or religion of the character? Of course not. Because bad writing is bad writing. But do we really think it will be?
And I can understand why- at this point in the character's pre-history, when the ethnicity, gender, and religion of the character is getting all the attention, that it can seem like that is all the character is going to be about. But that is because we don't have the work yet. There is no story yet. So the narrative to hook the press is "a boundary is getting broken here". And that gets picked up, because it is of interest to them. You can try to announce to the press "there is a new comic, and it is going to be really, really great, with excellent art and writing". In fact, there are press releases like that all the time, but they don't usually get any pickup outside of comics sites.
But, here's the thing- just because they may be playing to what the press is going to pick up on in the promotional phase doesn't mean that will be the only thing focused on in the work. Because the concern that has been expressed here of 'I don't want it to ONLY be about the fact that the character is x, y, z..." is a common concern. And they are out to add new readers and keep existing ones. Not to drive anyone away. I think publishers know better than that. In fact, given the reaction that they tend to get from their existing readership, I think they are smart enough to know that they are fighting the expectation that a book will put identity politics before story. I think they know it is on them to prove that is not the case. But, again, whether they succeed we won't know until we have the work.
Remember, a lot of these same discussions were had around the Miles Morales Spider-Man. We are now two years into stories with him. Are all his stories about being bi-racial? Or are they stories mostly about being the new(ish) Spider-Man?
@David_D, I understand what you're referencing & as a mostly WASP person, I feel this can lead to tightrope discussions because what could be interpreted isn't what you, I, or someone else might actually mean.
In any event, you are right that we're discussing a press release verse actual material. I presume MM Spidey doesn't have bi-racial stories; I can't stand Bendis' writing style except for All-New X-Men.
I get its a way to bring in Non-WASP readers. And bad writing can kill any character no matter how interesting he/she originally was. Personally, I've always like to see character develop from the stories rather then a press release. If Kathy Kane was revealed to be a lesbian in her third appearance with a build up to the revelation, I think it reads better. If you know it going into her first appearance, then there already something potentially defining her.
I guess I approach people, real & fictional, like this:
Our past & beliefs make us who we are, they don't define us.
M
I get all that. Sadly, given how toxic of an environment monthly comics are to the new, it may be that a character only gets time to develop if they buy that time. And generating initial buzz or using the identity politics of the character to bring in new readers or stake holders might be the only way that the series opens at a number big enough to get time for the character to develop.
That's true. I think about the original series on TBS really playing up aspects that are meaningless to the show as its advertised 2 months before the show airs.
Sullivan & Son was heavily marketed as "executive produced by Wedding Crashers' Vince Vaughn." It really was a non-factor to the series, but a way to generate some talk & viewers.
I cannot argue with anything you've said @David_D, but I agree with @Matt. Personally I would like to see them downplay the ethnicity aspect, but simply include it, run with the title, then let it creep out after a few issues in the press about the fact that she made her trip to Mecca or saved a Christian church from burning, or denounced or fought off some radical jihadists, or just did something extraordinary in spite of her diversity. Diversity, in and of itself, is actually not at all interesting to me.
We'll see how this book does, but I would have preferred to see it succeed or fail based on the art and storytelling as opposed to gaining sales due to the ethnicity of the protagonist. It seems cheap because, let's face it, it essentially is. I understand the publishers are trying to sell books, but something like this could be handled in more creative ways than this. It almost reminds me of how all 1st issues used to feature the obligatory Spider-Man guest star. However, I do not own a comic publishing company, so they may know better than I do. That's just my two cents.
I cannot argue with anything you've said @David_D, but I agree with @Matt. Personally I would like to see them downplay the ethnicity aspect, but simply include it, run with the title, then let it creep out after a few issues in the press about the fact that she made her trip to Mecca or saved a Christian church from burning, or denounced or fought off some radical jihadists, or just did something extraordinary in spite of her diversity. Diversity, in and of itself, is actually not at all interesting to me.
We'll see how this book does, but I would have preferred to see it succeed or fail based on the art and storytelling as opposed to gaining sales due to the ethnicity of the protagonist. It seems cheap because, let's face it, it essentially is. I understand the publishers are trying to sell books, but something like this could be handled in more creative ways than this. It almost reminds me of how all 1st issues used to feature the obligatory Spider-Man guest star. However, I do not own a comic publishing company, so they may know better than I do. That's just my two cents.
I get that, but I have to ask: should this have been the one new series that Marvel DOESN'T do a press release for and try to sell?
For context, Marvel today sent out four press releases-- one about the first appearance of the new Ms. Marvel (in Captain Marvel #17) going back to print based on interest, two press releases about the upcoming Inhumanity #1; and a press release about All-New X-Force #1. That was four press releases today. Yesterday they had another teaser for Inhumanity, some promo called "Hammered" about a book Gerry Duggan is writing (not sure what it is yet), another about the Hulk cartoon, the day before that was ANOTHER Inhumanity teaser, as well as a press release for the new Ms. Marvel.
So, for context, they send press releases- often multiple ones- about every new title. They try to generate interest and sell sell sell every new thing there is to order, and write about.
So in suggesting that they should have sort of quietly introduced a new Ms. Marvel title and hoped that it found an audience based on the quality of the work... I get that desire. But that would be the exception to how they launch every other title they launch, you know what I mean?
Now, sure, I would bet that Marvel's press people knew there was more chance of the mainstream picking up on Ms. Marvel than on Inhumanity (though I am sure they would have loved it if Cobert and Conan got talking about Inhumanity #1 also). . . but therefore they should have NOT publicized this new series? In one of the rare cases where they had a press release that might get a lot of pick up, the high road would have been to not have a press release?
Again, you may not be interested in the diversity that this character represents, or diversity at all, and that is fine. You don't need to be. But if the worst thing that happens is that someone who IS interested in the diversity that this character represents finds out about it, and gives it a try (and, heck, it might be their first comic bought in awhile or first comic bought ever, who knows). . . then is that a *bad* thing?
And, of course, I get that the diversity of the character shouldn't be the only thing, or even the priority, but just because that element of the character is something that is part of the announcement, and gets some press doesn't mean that it will therefore end up being all that character is about. Again, I would cite Miles Morales as an example of that not happening. His racial identity got all the attention at first, but then the stories were the stories. And, according to a lot of readers, they were very good. But you know what else happened? Readers showed up to give those stories a try.
And that is what a book like this needs. Especially since it is not a book with the word "Spider-" or "Bat in the title. And with a woman in the lead.
I cannot argue with anything you've said @David_D, but I agree with @Matt. Personally I would like to see them downplay the ethnicity aspect, but simply include it, run with the title, then let it creep out after a few issues in the press about the fact that she made her trip to Mecca or saved a Christian church from burning, or denounced or fought off some radical jihadists, or just did something extraordinary in spite of her diversity. Diversity, in and of itself, is actually not at all interesting to me.
We'll see how this book does, but I would have preferred to see it succeed or fail based on the art and storytelling as opposed to gaining sales due to the ethnicity of the protagonist. It seems cheap because, let's face it, it essentially is. I understand the publishers are trying to sell books, but something like this could be handled in more creative ways than this. It almost reminds me of how all 1st issues used to feature the obligatory Spider-Man guest star. However, I do not own a comic publishing company, so they may know better than I do. That's just my two cents.
I get that, but I have to ask: should this have been the one new series that Marvel DOESN'T do a press release for and try to sell?
For context, Marvel today sent out four press releases-- one about the first appearance of the new Ms. Marvel (in Captain Marvel #17) going back to print based on interest, two press releases about the upcoming Inhumanity #1; and a press release about All-New X-Force #1. That was four press releases today. Yesterday they had another teaser for Inhumanity, some promo called "Hammered" about a book Gerry Duggan is writing (not sure what it is yet), another about the Hulk cartoon, the day before that was ANOTHER Inhumanity teaser, as well as a press release for the new Ms. Marvel.
So, for context, they send press releases- often multiple ones- about every new title. They try to generate interest and sell sell sell every new thing there is to order, and write about.
So in suggesting that they should have sort of quietly introduced a new Ms. Marvel title and hoped that it found an audience based on the quality of the work... I get that desire. But that would be the exception to how they launch every other title they launch, you know what I mean?
Now, sure, I would bet that Marvel's press people knew there was more chance of the mainstream picking up on Ms. Marvel than on Inhumanity (though I am sure they would have loved it if Cobert and Conan got talking about Inhumanity #1 also). . . but therefore they should have NOT publicized this new series? In one of the rare cases where they had a press release that might get a lot of pick up, the high road would have been to not have a press release?
Again, you may not be interested in the diversity that this character represents, or diversity at all, and that is fine. You don't need to be. But if the worst thing that happens is that someone who IS interested in the diversity that this character represents finds out about it, and gives it a try (and, heck, it might be their first comic bought in awhile or first comic bought ever, who knows). . . then is that a *bad* thing?
And, of course, I get that the diversity of the character shouldn't be the only thing, or even the priority, but just because that element of the character is something that is part of the announcement, and gets some press doesn't mean that it will therefore end up being all that character is about. Again, I would cite Miles Morales as an example of that not happening. His racial identity got all the attention at first, but then the stories were the stories. And, according to a lot of readers, they were very good. But you know what else happened? Readers showed up to give those stories a try.
And that is what a book like this needs. Especially since it is not a book with the word "Spider-" or "Bat in the title. And with a woman in the lead.
Truthfully, I never realized (or gave much thought) Marvel sent daily press releases with only a handful actually making headlines.
I haven't actually seen this release, so its very likely the news played up the Islamic aspect. It makes sense it would grab the headlines.
I cannot argue with anything you've said @David_D, but I agree with @Matt. Personally I would like to see them downplay the ethnicity aspect, but simply include it, run with the title, then let it creep out after a few issues in the press about the fact that she made her trip to Mecca or saved a Christian church from burning, or denounced or fought off some radical jihadists, or just did something extraordinary in spite of her diversity. Diversity, in and of itself, is actually not at all interesting to me.
We'll see how this book does, but I would have preferred to see it succeed or fail based on the art and storytelling as opposed to gaining sales due to the ethnicity of the protagonist. It seems cheap because, let's face it, it essentially is. I understand the publishers are trying to sell books, but something like this could be handled in more creative ways than this. It almost reminds me of how all 1st issues used to feature the obligatory Spider-Man guest star. However, I do not own a comic publishing company, so they may know better than I do. That's just my two cents.
I get that, but I have to ask: should this have been the one new series that Marvel DOESN'T do a press release for and try to sell?
For context, Marvel today sent out four press releases-- one about the first appearance of the new Ms. Marvel (in Captain Marvel #17) going back to print based on interest, two press releases about the upcoming Inhumanity #1; and a press release about All-New X-Force #1. That was four press releases today. Yesterday they had another teaser for Inhumanity, some promo called "Hammered" about a book Gerry Duggan is writing (not sure what it is yet), another about the Hulk cartoon, the day before that was ANOTHER Inhumanity teaser, as well as a press release for the new Ms. Marvel.
So, for context, they send press releases- often multiple ones- about every new title. They try to generate interest and sell sell sell every new thing there is to order, and write about.
So in suggesting that they should have sort of quietly introduced a new Ms. Marvel title and hoped that it found an audience based on the quality of the work... I get that desire. But that would be the exception to how they launch every other title they launch, you know what I mean?
Now, sure, I would bet that Marvel's press people knew there was more chance of the mainstream picking up on Ms. Marvel than on Inhumanity (though I am sure they would have loved it if Cobert and Conan got talking about Inhumanity #1 also). . . but therefore they should have NOT publicized this new series? In one of the rare cases where they had a press release that might get a lot of pick up, the high road would have been to not have a press release?
Again, you may not be interested in the diversity that this character represents, or diversity at all, and that is fine. You don't need to be. But if the worst thing that happens is that someone who IS interested in the diversity that this character represents finds out about it, and gives it a try (and, heck, it might be their first comic bought in awhile or first comic bought ever, who knows). . . then is that a *bad* thing?
And, of course, I get that the diversity of the character shouldn't be the only thing, or even the priority, but just because that element of the character is something that is part of the announcement, and gets some press doesn't mean that it will therefore end up being all that character is about. Again, I would cite Miles Morales as an example of that not happening. His racial identity got all the attention at first, but then the stories were the stories. And, according to a lot of readers, they were very good. But you know what else happened? Readers showed up to give those stories a try.
And that is what a book like this needs. Especially since it is not a book with the word "Spider-" or "Bat in the title. And with a woman in the lead.
I cannot argue with anything you've said @David_D, but I agree with @Matt. Personally I would like to see them downplay the ethnicity aspect, but simply include it, run with the title, then let it creep out after a few issues in the press about the fact that she made her trip to Mecca or saved a Christian church from burning, or denounced or fought off some radical jihadists, or just did something extraordinary in spite of her diversity. Diversity, in and of itself, is actually not at all interesting to me.
We'll see how this book does, but I would have preferred to see it succeed or fail based on the art and storytelling as opposed to gaining sales due to the ethnicity of the protagonist. It seems cheap because, let's face it, it essentially is. I understand the publishers are trying to sell books, but something like this could be handled in more creative ways than this. It almost reminds me of how all 1st issues used to feature the obligatory Spider-Man guest star. However, I do not own a comic publishing company, so they may know better than I do. That's just my two cents.
I get that, but I have to ask: should this have been the one new series that Marvel DOESN'T do a press release for and try to sell?
For context, Marvel today sent out four press releases-- one about the first appearance of the new Ms. Marvel (in Captain Marvel #17) going back to print based on interest, two press releases about the upcoming Inhumanity #1; and a press release about All-New X-Force #1. That was four press releases today. Yesterday they had another teaser for Inhumanity, some promo called "Hammered" about a book Gerry Duggan is writing (not sure what it is yet), another about the Hulk cartoon, the day before that was ANOTHER Inhumanity teaser, as well as a press release for the new Ms. Marvel.
So, for context, they send press releases- often multiple ones- about every new title. They try to generate interest and sell sell sell every new thing there is to order, and write about.
So in suggesting that they should have sort of quietly introduced a new Ms. Marvel title and hoped that it found an audience based on the quality of the work... I get that desire. But that would be the exception to how they launch every other title they launch, you know what I mean?
Now, sure, I would bet that Marvel's press people knew there was more chance of the mainstream picking up on Ms. Marvel than on Inhumanity (though I am sure they would have loved it if Cobert and Conan got talking about Inhumanity #1 also). . . but therefore they should have NOT publicized this new series? In one of the rare cases where they had a press release that might get a lot of pick up, the high road would have been to not have a press release?
Again, you may not be interested in the diversity that this character represents, or diversity at all, and that is fine. You don't need to be. But if the worst thing that happens is that someone who IS interested in the diversity that this character represents finds out about it, and gives it a try (and, heck, it might be their first comic bought in awhile or first comic bought ever, who knows). . . then is that a *bad* thing?
And, of course, I get that the diversity of the character shouldn't be the only thing, or even the priority, but just because that element of the character is something that is part of the announcement, and gets some press doesn't mean that it will therefore end up being all that character is about. Again, I would cite Miles Morales as an example of that not happening. His racial identity got all the attention at first, but then the stories were the stories. And, according to a lot of readers, they were very good. But you know what else happened? Readers showed up to give those stories a try.
And that is what a book like this needs. Especially since it is not a book with the word "Spider-" or "Bat in the title. And with a woman in the lead.
=D> well articulated. Bravo.
Anything less would be uncivilized...or David_D-ish!
I think my issue is less about the press releases, which they do for every new book, and more about the gimmick aspect. Hopefully it has been well thought out and can be done with good taste and flair. However, it's likely I'm simply approaching this in a strictly egocentric manner because I have zero interest in the book while admitting that i am interested in Inhumanity. So there's that.
I think my issue is less about the press releases, which they do for every new book, and more about the gimmick aspect. Hopefully it has been well thought out and can be done with good taste and flair. However, it's likely I'm simply approaching this in a strictly egocentric manner because I have zero interest in the book while admitting that i am interested in Inhumanity. So there's that.
I get that. But things seeming like a token or a gimmick is part of the process-- when something gets added late, it might seem like it is a political or gimmicky, or attention-seeking thing to do. But that is because the count is going from a tiny handful (and, in the case of title characters, from a count of zero) to a tiny handful +1. So, when the numbers are so small, to some people, any addition merits attention.
If, in the future, there are enough characters of all backgrounds-- more like the world we live in-- that it would be ridiculous for the press to take note of it, then that would be great. I look forward to that. But we are not there yet.
We live in the Twitter era of instant news, and it is imperative for entities to be proactive rather than reactive on public relations. If something is a potential news story, it is better for you to break it rather than a critical mass of snarkmeisters on social media to churn out "Muslim Ms. Marvel??? Thanks Obama!" tweets and thus shape the narrative in the initial stages.
The press release by Marvel can be seen cynically as a comic company trying to generate news (and death and diversity seem to be the quickest ways to do that), or it can be taken at face value and be seen simply as Marvel taking justifiable pride in working to reflect diversity in its roster of characters. Marvel would be the first to admit that it has a 50-year-legacy of primarily white male characters; they want more diversity. They are announcing it because it's worth announcing.
We live in the Twitter era of instant news, and it is imperative for entities to be proactive rather than reactive on public relations. If something is a potential news story, it is better for you to break it rather than a critical mass of snarkmeisters on social media to churn out "Muslim Ms. Marvel??? Thanks Obama!" tweets and thus shape the narrative in the initial stages.
The press release by Marvel can be seen cynically as a comic company trying to generate news (and death and diversity seem to be the quickest ways to do that), or it can be taken at face value and be seen simply as Marvel taking justifiable pride in working to reflect diversity in its roster of characters. Marvel would be the first to admit that it has a 50-year-legacy of primarily white male characters; they want more diversity. They are announcing it because it's worth announcing.
Well-said. (And more concisely than I could ever be!)
We live in the Twitter era of instant news, and it is imperative for entities to be proactive rather than reactive on public relations. If something is a potential news story, it is better for you to break it rather than a critical mass of snarkmeisters on social media to churn out "Muslim Ms. Marvel??? Thanks Obama!" tweets and thus shape the narrative in the initial stages.
The press release by Marvel can be seen cynically as a comic company trying to generate news (and death and diversity seem to be the quickest ways to do that), or it can be taken at face value and be seen simply as Marvel taking justifiable pride in working to reflect diversity in its roster of characters. Marvel would be the first to admit that it has a 50-year-legacy of primarily white male characters; they want more diversity. They are announcing it because it's worth announcing.
Wait! you mean if stood Donald Blake, Clint Barton, Steve Rogers and Hank Pym side by side with no masks I couldn't tell them apart?! *gasp* They ARE all blond haired, blue eyes aryan lookin MFers. Hmmmm.
Wait! you mean if stood Donald Blake, Clint Barton, Steve Rogers and Hank Pym side by side with no masks I couldn't tell them apart?! *gasp* They ARE all blond haired, blue eyes aryan lookin MFers. Hmmmm.
Sadly, depending on the artist, that's all-too-possible.
Wait! you mean if stood Donald Blake, Clint Barton, Steve Rogers and Hank Pym side by side with no masks I couldn't tell them apart?! *gasp* They ARE all blond haired, blue eyes aryan lookin MFers. Hmmmm.
Donald Blake would be the crippled one with a cane ;)
Wait! you mean if stood Donald Blake, Clint Barton, Steve Rogers and Hank Pym side by side with no masks I couldn't tell them apart?! *gasp* They ARE all blond haired, blue eyes aryan lookin MFers. Hmmmm.
Donald Blake would be the crippled one with a cane ;)
oh yeah! Right! He represents the diversity! MarvelNOW I get it!
We live in the Twitter era of instant news, and it is imperative for entities to be proactive rather than reactive on public relations. If something is a potential news story, it is better for you to break it rather than a critical mass of snarkmeisters on social media to churn out "Muslim Ms. Marvel??? Thanks Obama!" tweets and thus shape the narrative in the initial stages.
The press release by Marvel can be seen cynically as a comic company trying to generate news (and death and diversity seem to be the quickest ways to do that), or it can be taken at face value and be seen simply as Marvel taking justifiable pride in working to reflect diversity in its roster of characters. Marvel would be the first to admit that it has a 50-year-legacy of primarily white male characters; they want more diversity. They are announcing it because it's worth announcing.
Wait! you mean if stood Donald Blake, Clint Barton, Steve Rogers and Hank Pym side by side with no masks I couldn't tell them apart?! *gasp* They ARE all blond haired, blue eyes aryan lookin MFers. Hmmmm.
"Hank Pym would be the one wearing his wife's dress."
"Marvel Comics is introducing a new Muslim Female superhero. She has so many more special powers than her husband’s other wives." - Conan O'Brien
Once again, good points on the forums guys, but unfortunately I'm not the only person thinking this move was gimmicky. Should we expect the next diverse super-powered hero to be Belgian or Pakistani? Or is that not politically correct enough?
"Marvel Comics is introducing a new Muslim Female superhero. She has so many more special powers than her husband’s other wives." - Conan O'Brien
Once again, good points on the forums guys, but unfortunately I'm not the only person thinking this move was gimmicky. Should we expect the next diverse super-powered hero to be Belgian or Pakistani? Or is that not politically correct enough?
Admitting Muslim-Americans exist, and therefore would be a few characters in what is supposed to be "your universe" is actually not politics. It is demographics.
Is that an actual answer to my question or can you just not hear me up there? Lighten up.
Sorry, was it an actual question? It seemed rhetorical.
But if it was a real question, then here is the answer to it: there are an estimated 1.6 Billion Muslims in the world. There are an estimated 11 Million Belgians.
So it is still not politics, it is demographics.
Sure, they might get around to Belgians, too, but they are actually LESS behind on that count, by a large ratio. And there are likely more potential Muslim readers in America alone to hook with this Ms. Marvel than, say, a Belgian Marvel Boy.
So, maybe it isn't just demographics, it is demographics and good business, as well. But I would expect that business ranks much higher on the list of Marvel priorities than politics. They are a .com. Not a .org. Which is why I disagree with accusations of political correctness. If their decisions were motivated by politics rather than profit, their line would already be a LOT different than it is. But what they are doing is selling books, and trying to expand their audience, and grow their business, as businesses have to do every year.
Some might find that to be a gimmick, but that is all part of the process. Change can seem gimmicky, until it no longer is unusual enough to even register to anyone as a gimmick.
Gimmick + 1.6 billion Muslims = all new Ms Marvel title cancelled in less than 9 issues, nonetheless.
Not saying it's related, just stating my opinion. The change in character was not necessary.
You don't like my opinion? Fair enough, but you're not changing it. I've given you mad props for explaining why you think it's a smart or exceptional move on Marvel's part. I'm just in that minority I suppose that ain't gonna bite. Sorry if you feel that makes me less enlightened in any way. I just know what I'm interested in.
It kind of reminds me of the comic that went gimmicky and gave us a mainstream gay superhero wedding, Astonishing X-Men, one year after the hoopla, it's gotten cancelled… and 1 in 10 people are supposed to be gay. That's a huge audience too. Not comparing Muslims to gay people. It's not a fair comparison at all, but just commenting on unnecessary gimmicks versus good art and story-telling, which Astonishing was sorely lacking.
My point is, if Marvel is just doing this because they want to say "we've got the first Muslim super-hero so buy this book" or whatever, but they don't back it up with good stories and art, what's the point? Will it have 4 different foil covers too? Maybe it should. I'm not into speculation anymore. If it turns out to be the best book since Hawkeye, I'll eat my words and buy the trades, but I ain't holding my breath. Maybe I'm not their target audience?
I never said you or anyone had to buy it or be interested in it. Nor have I passed any judgments on those that aren't interested.
I have a different opinion on whether or not this was political correctness, but that, too, is a difference of opinion. It is not me saying that I disliked your opinion. It is a "disagree" (remember- those used to even be two separate buttons!).
Also, for what it is worth, I have no interest in changing opinions. I don't see that as the point of a discussion forum. Though others may want a different thing from discussion, and that's fine.
Getting back to whether the book will be good or successful. Of course, we won't know if the work is good until we have the work, and there is no point of publishing a book anout any character that is not good. That is as true of a book about a Muslim-American woman as it is of a book about another guy that looks like Steve Rogers. Bad work is bad work. And, let's be fair, no one is actually arguing that people should buy it if it isn't good.
But I don't fault them for trying to help it find an audience, and yes, that audience might not be you. Or me (I actually never said I was planning on buying it. Personally, Wilson's writing has done nothing for me in the past, and writer is usually how I decide my purchases, even though I did love Alphona on Runaways).
And it may only run 9 issues. But, had they not even promoted the book the best they could, then a Ms. Marvel book, about a new Ms. Marvel at a time when Carol Danvers also has her own book in the line, probably wouldn't even make it to issue nine. Heck, it might have been one of those ones that got cancelled before the first issue shipped, like that She-Hulks book from a few years ago. So if they had a hook that might bring in some attention, or even some new audience, to give it a fighting chance? Well, I don't blame them for trying.
Now, lets be clear- all that I just wrote above? That is me differing with you on opinions. This is not, nor has it been, personal. And discussions only derail when something that isn't personal is made to be so.
"Marvel Comics is introducing a new Muslim Female superhero. She has so many more special powers than her husband’s other wives." - Conan O'Brien
Once again, good points on the forums guys, but unfortunately I'm not the only person thinking this move was gimmicky. Should we expect the next diverse super-powered hero to be Belgian or Pakistani? Or is that not politically correct enough?
It's all gimmicky at some level. There are X-Men characters from Canada, Scotland, Africa, Germany, Russia, Louisiana, Chicago; were the creators simply pandering to geography? Or perhaps they figured an entire universe of superheroes that originated in New York City was just a bit limiting.
Ms. Marvel's religion is no more or less gimmicky than Nightcrawler's Catholicism. Personally, it seems more realistic to have a few characters who dabble in the same religions that are embraced by billions of people; I always thought it was odd that in a highly religious nation like the U.S., the vast majority of characters never invoke God, attend church, pray, etc. Kurt Wagner, who's not even American, seemed like the only one who ever did.
It isn't really her religion being a gimmicky thing, or even the mention of it-- it's the promotion of it as though it were the main reason for her book or character that's annoying. It's a part of her, and not the other way around, unless they're actually promoting a comic about The Power Of Islam.
Comments
But I also think- when we reflect on what does or doesn't interest us about a character- that we have to keep in mind the desire for representation in entertainment was not really something guys like you and I had to deal with growing up, you know what I mean? As kids, when arguably it matters most, and even as adults, we are spoiled for choice when it comes to sharing traits with the characters in our fiction. The barrier for entry for relating to the character has always been lower for us than some readers.
So when a series is being added that might be of interest to a reader- maybe particularly a young reader (and we always say we want more of those!) who wants to read a character that they can relate to in a certain way, then I am all for anything that helps connect that reader with that work. Should the work be only about the ethnicity, gender, or religion of the character? Of course not. Because bad writing is bad writing. But do we really think it will be?
And I can understand why- at this point in the character's pre-history, when the ethnicity, gender, and religion of the character is getting all the attention, that it can seem like that is all the character is going to be about. But that is because we don't have the work yet. There is no story yet. So the narrative to hook the press is "a boundary is getting broken here". And that gets picked up, because it is of interest to them. You can try to announce to the press "there is a new comic, and it is going to be really, really great, with excellent art and writing". In fact, there are press releases like that all the time, but they don't usually get any pickup outside of comics sites.
But, here's the thing- just because they may be playing to what the press is going to pick up on in the promotional phase doesn't mean that will be the only thing focused on in the work. Because the concern that has been expressed here of 'I don't want it to ONLY be about the fact that the character is x, y, z..." is a common concern. And they are out to add new readers and keep existing ones. Not to drive anyone away. I think publishers know better than that. In fact, given the reaction that they tend to get from their existing readership, I think they are smart enough to know that they are fighting the expectation that a book will put identity politics before story. I think they know it is on them to prove that is not the case. But, again, whether they succeed we won't know until we have the work.
Remember, a lot of these same discussions were had around the Miles Morales Spider-Man. We are now two years into stories with him. Are all his stories about being bi-racial? Or are they stories mostly about being the new(ish) Spider-Man?
Also, that was 7 years ago? Wow. Hard to believe.
In any event, you are right that we're discussing a press release verse actual material. I presume MM Spidey doesn't have bi-racial stories; I can't stand Bendis' writing style except for All-New X-Men.
I get its a way to bring in Non-WASP readers. And bad writing can kill any character no matter how interesting he/she originally was. Personally, I've always like to see character develop from the stories rather then a press release. If Kathy Kane was revealed to be a lesbian in her third appearance with a build up to the revelation, I think it reads better. If you know it going into her first appearance, then there already something potentially defining her.
I guess I approach people, real & fictional, like this:
Our past & beliefs make us who we are, they don't define us.
M
Sullivan & Son was heavily marketed as "executive produced by Wedding Crashers' Vince Vaughn." It really was a non-factor to the series, but a way to generate some talk & viewers.
M
We'll see how this book does, but I would have preferred to see it succeed or fail based on the art and storytelling as opposed to gaining sales due to the ethnicity of the protagonist. It seems cheap because, let's face it, it essentially is. I understand the publishers are trying to sell books, but something like this could be handled in more creative ways than this. It almost reminds me of how all 1st issues used to feature the obligatory Spider-Man guest star. However, I do not own a comic publishing company, so they may know better than I do. That's just my two cents.
For context, Marvel today sent out four press releases-- one about the first appearance of the new Ms. Marvel (in Captain Marvel #17) going back to print based on interest, two press releases about the upcoming Inhumanity #1; and a press release about All-New X-Force #1. That was four press releases today. Yesterday they had another teaser for Inhumanity, some promo called "Hammered" about a book Gerry Duggan is writing (not sure what it is yet), another about the Hulk cartoon, the day before that was ANOTHER Inhumanity teaser, as well as a press release for the new Ms. Marvel.
So, for context, they send press releases- often multiple ones- about every new title. They try to generate interest and sell sell sell every new thing there is to order, and write about.
So in suggesting that they should have sort of quietly introduced a new Ms. Marvel title and hoped that it found an audience based on the quality of the work... I get that desire. But that would be the exception to how they launch every other title they launch, you know what I mean?
Now, sure, I would bet that Marvel's press people knew there was more chance of the mainstream picking up on Ms. Marvel than on Inhumanity (though I am sure they would have loved it if Cobert and Conan got talking about Inhumanity #1 also). . . but therefore they should have NOT publicized this new series? In one of the rare cases where they had a press release that might get a lot of pick up, the high road would have been to not have a press release?
Again, you may not be interested in the diversity that this character represents, or diversity at all, and that is fine. You don't need to be. But if the worst thing that happens is that someone who IS interested in the diversity that this character represents finds out about it, and gives it a try (and, heck, it might be their first comic bought in awhile or first comic bought ever, who knows). . . then is that a *bad* thing?
And, of course, I get that the diversity of the character shouldn't be the only thing, or even the priority, but just because that element of the character is something that is part of the announcement, and gets some press doesn't mean that it will therefore end up being all that character is about. Again, I would cite Miles Morales as an example of that not happening. His racial identity got all the attention at first, but then the stories were the stories. And, according to a lot of readers, they were very good. But you know what else happened? Readers showed up to give those stories a try.
And that is what a book like this needs. Especially since it is not a book with the word "Spider-" or "Bat in the title. And with a woman in the lead.
I haven't actually seen this release, so its very likely the news played up the Islamic aspect. It makes sense it would grab the headlines.
M
M
If, in the future, there are enough characters of all backgrounds-- more like the world we live in-- that it would be ridiculous for the press to take note of it, then that would be great. I look forward to that. But we are not there yet.
The press release by Marvel can be seen cynically as a comic company trying to generate news (and death and diversity seem to be the quickest ways to do that), or it can be taken at face value and be seen simply as Marvel taking justifiable pride in working to reflect diversity in its roster of characters. Marvel would be the first to admit that it has a 50-year-legacy of primarily white male characters; they want more diversity. They are announcing it because it's worth announcing.
*Again!
-- Drunk Cap
Once again, good points on the forums guys, but unfortunately I'm not the only person thinking this move was gimmicky. Should we expect the next diverse super-powered hero to be Belgian or Pakistani? Or is that not politically correct enough?
But if it was a real question, then here is the answer to it: there are an estimated 1.6 Billion Muslims in the world. There are an estimated 11 Million Belgians.
So it is still not politics, it is demographics.
Sure, they might get around to Belgians, too, but they are actually LESS behind on that count, by a large ratio. And there are likely more potential Muslim readers in America alone to hook with this Ms. Marvel than, say, a Belgian Marvel Boy.
So, maybe it isn't just demographics, it is demographics and good business, as well. But I would expect that business ranks much higher on the list of Marvel priorities than politics. They are a .com. Not a .org. Which is why I disagree with accusations of political correctness. If their decisions were motivated by politics rather than profit, their line would already be a LOT different than it is. But what they are doing is selling books, and trying to expand their audience, and grow their business, as businesses have to do every year.
Some might find that to be a gimmick, but that is all part of the process. Change can seem gimmicky, until it no longer is unusual enough to even register to anyone as a gimmick.
Gimmick + 1.6 billion Muslims = all new Ms Marvel title cancelled in less than 9 issues, nonetheless.
Not saying it's related, just stating my opinion. The change in character was not necessary.
You don't like my opinion? Fair enough, but you're not changing it. I've given you mad props for explaining why you think it's a smart or exceptional move on Marvel's part. I'm just in that minority I suppose that ain't gonna bite. Sorry if you feel that makes me less enlightened in any way. I just know what I'm interested in.
It kind of reminds me of the comic that went gimmicky and gave us a mainstream gay superhero wedding, Astonishing X-Men, one year after the hoopla, it's gotten cancelled… and 1 in 10 people are supposed to be gay. That's a huge audience too. Not comparing Muslims to gay people. It's not a fair comparison at all, but just commenting on unnecessary gimmicks versus good art and story-telling, which Astonishing was sorely lacking.
My point is, if Marvel is just doing this because they want to say "we've got the first Muslim super-hero so buy this book" or whatever, but they don't back it up with good stories and art, what's the point? Will it have 4 different foil covers too? Maybe it should. I'm not into speculation anymore. If it turns out to be the best book since Hawkeye, I'll eat my words and buy the trades, but I ain't holding my breath. Maybe I'm not their target audience?
I never said you or anyone had to buy it or be interested in it. Nor have I passed any judgments on those that aren't interested.
I have a different opinion on whether or not this was political correctness, but that, too, is a difference of opinion. It is not me saying that I disliked your opinion. It is a "disagree" (remember- those used to even be two separate buttons!).
Also, for what it is worth, I have no interest in changing opinions. I don't see that as the point of a discussion forum. Though others may want a different thing from discussion, and that's fine.
Getting back to whether the book will be good or successful. Of course, we won't know if the work is good until we have the work, and there is no point of publishing a book anout any character that is not good. That is as true of a book about a Muslim-American woman as it is of a book about another guy that looks like Steve Rogers. Bad work is bad work. And, let's be fair, no one is actually arguing that people should buy it if it isn't good.
But I don't fault them for trying to help it find an audience, and yes, that audience might not be you. Or me (I actually never said I was planning on buying it. Personally, Wilson's writing has done nothing for me in the past, and writer is usually how I decide my purchases, even though I did love Alphona on Runaways).
And it may only run 9 issues. But, had they not even promoted the book the best they could, then a Ms. Marvel book, about a new Ms. Marvel at a time when Carol Danvers also has her own book in the line, probably wouldn't even make it to issue nine. Heck, it might have been one of those ones that got cancelled before the first issue shipped, like that She-Hulks book from a few years ago. So if they had a hook that might bring in some attention, or even some new audience, to give it a fighting chance? Well, I don't blame them for trying.
Now, lets be clear- all that I just wrote above? That is me differing with you on opinions. This is not, nor has it been, personal. And discussions only derail when something that isn't personal is made to be so.
Perhaps as a follow-up you could make a joke about her not being allowed to drive the Batmobile.
Or a sound effect graphic "Jee-Hawd!"
Or, hey!, you could force a pun about the spelling similarity of Shi-'ite to a certain other word. That always cracked 'em up back at Harvard.
Ms. Marvel's religion is no more or less gimmicky than Nightcrawler's Catholicism. Personally, it seems more realistic to have a few characters who dabble in the same religions that are embraced by billions of people; I always thought it was odd that in a highly religious nation like the U.S., the vast majority of characters never invoke God, attend church, pray, etc. Kurt Wagner, who's not even American, seemed like the only one who ever did.