I was pretty surprised T-Dog died because I thought we would at least get some back story/character development on him before he went.
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He died because of the Rule of One. There can only be one black guy on the show at a time and the new guy had more lines in that one scene than T-Dog did the past couple of seasons. Maybe he'll be the new Tyreese?
Shit,30 more seconds and I'm sure I would have been crying. That ep was so emotionally charged it was nuts. I knew Lori would die during this arch but not like this. Wow. Good for them picking this and not the way it was in the comics.
I really like the show... but I also really liked the comic... up to about this point.
We are approaching the roundabout area when I stopped reading the comics. Why did I stop reading the comics? Because it became too much for me. For those who have read the comic, and you remember what happens around this time, you probably know exactly what I'm talking about. For those who haven't read it, I won't spoil anything.
I had hoped as this series moved forward, diverging from the comic storylines, that maybe, just maybe what turned me from the comic would be avoided, or at least, delayed a few more seasons, but right now... it seems very close.
Depending on how closely this follows the comic... I may be done with this show very shortly.
It is an odd feeling, to be thoroughly enjoying something, and keenly aware that that enjoyment may end very soon.
After listening to the recent CGS episode in which they discussed The Walking Dead's latest episode - as well as reading posts on this thread - I guess I am the lone (or one of the very few) who is hating this season. This season is the worst so far, & I wish I had saved the money I spent on itunes to buy the season pass.
I read the comic book, & have seen many interviews with Kirkman. I know that it was never Kirkman's plan to have the TV series be exactly like the books. I have been more than happy with all the changes - new characters, new situations, etc. - up to this season. But, now, the TV series has come to the place which was the most significant and pivotal chapter for the comic book characters. This part of the book - the prison & the Governor - was the very 1st serious challenge Rick's crew had to face, and showed everyone that the world around them had indeed changed. That the sickest thing out there was not the zombies, but the humans.
If AMC was going to include this in the series, it is my feeling that they should have done so in as true a way to the comic as possible. The casting of The Governor is crucial to that end. The actor hired to play The Governor is terrible. I don't know if it was a financial thing (he was cheaper to pay than better known, or just plain better actor), or Kirkman just lost his mind. This guy looks & acts nothing like The Governor. A better choice would be Danny Trejo, who at least LOOKS like The Governor.
This failure to select an appropriate actor is impossible for me to get past. He is not believable in the role. This actor - coupled with how AMC changed the story with Michonne & Andrea's experience with The Governor & his compound - takes me right out of the story. Sure, AMC is including some of the things from the book - the Governor has a daughter zombie, the gladiator style arena fight with zombies perilously close - but, the overall telling of the story fails miserably in my opinion. Sure, there are some good things that have happened in this season. Lori getting killed is one of them - although I would have loved her to have been killed and off the show in season one, as she was the most annoying character on it, other than Carl who seems to have no range of affect or emotion (surely there are better child actors out there). Rick's over the top reaction to Lori's death - & a whole episode wasted on him being hysterical while his son and new born dtr are left to others - was ridiculous. I think viewers got that he was upset at the end of the episode she was killed in. It didn't really need to take up another whole episode.
Anyway, I realize I will likely get 100 or more "dislikes" & "disagrees", etc. That's fine. I don't post to be popular, and I know I am a very minority opinion. But I just had to get this off my chest because I really can't understand why anybody who reads the comics can think this season is good. People who don't read the comics - sure! They have no expectations. It is all new to them. They can just go along for the ride. But, I, for one, am sad and disappointed that Kirkman - as executive producer on the show - did not pay as much respect to his own story as he could have.
Just watched tonights episode. So glad that a certain person,who advertises for Activia,isn't dead. The prison arc has been my favorite of the comic. And I do like how they have changed it for the show. Kind of surprised they did the "telephone" thing so early on. But still at least this season hasn't been boring like most of season 2 was.
[spoilers to this weeks episode from 11-18] I'll admit it... I fastforward thru the telephone parts... Rick's descent into madness just doesnt interest me. Going crazy in a crazy world is passe. Wish they had held off on Crazy Rick, but if it serves a purpose, I'll give it a pass. Was willing to suspend disbelief that Mearl would run into Glen and Maggie, and I thought Dania played Michone as a walker very well to make it to the fence as Rick find her. I liked the teen Haley (though seriously how many teen girl archers are we going to see on TV/Pop-Culture at the same time, we get it Hunger Games is popular!), I thought the talk about people having to kill their own family was thoughtful and well done... hope we see more of her.
Just a great episode. Hershel's reaction to Rick's phone calls, what's going on with the Governor's town, Merle's setting himself up for something BAD to happen later, Carl being a scary little sociopath...
I understand if people don't like it, but I am just loving this season. More character development, more danger and crazy Rick...
I haven't read the comics, so I can't compare, but I'm really enjoying this season. The pacing is great, there's so much more going on. Even if people find something like Rick going crazy annoying, they dealt with it in one episode. Last year they probably would have devoted the whole season to that. I didn't like that T-Dog died with no attempt to develop some kind of character first, but other than that, I've got no complaints.
I love the dual storylines, and seeing them come together last night was great. I can't get last season out of my head, so I keep expecting everything to take forever to happen, so I'm still surprised every time the plot takes a leap forward.
** NOTE THERE MAY SOME SOME OLD (YEARS OLD) COMIC SPOILERS BELOW IN COMPARING THE TV SHOW TO THE COMIC. BUT ONLY TO STUFF THAT WE HAVE SEEN IN THE TV SHOW ALREADY.
I have been consuming a lot (perhaps too much) Walking Dead content lately: I read the comic the day it comes out (been doing that for a long time now); I am halfway through the video game (though I get very little time to play it); I recently did the second Walking Dead as an audiobook; and apropos to this thread, I finally caught up on the entire second season of WD, and the new third season episodes, in the course of maybe 2 1/2 weeks of not going to bed when I should.
I think the only things left would be buying Walking Dead food, music, clothes, seeing a Walking Dead play, and hiring some guy to paint himself gray and chase me around.
Anyway, glad to finally be caught up to the rest of the culture, especially as spoilers have become harder and harder to avoid on social media.
I thought the second season had some strong moments, but dragged. It feels like they had a season bible for 8 episodes, and then when the first season hit such big numbers that story got stretched to 13 (I have no evidence for this, just a hunch). I feel like, while waiting around for the big story beats, there were a lot of Survivor-esque scenes built around 'and now SHE is mad at HER, and HE is mad at HIM. . .'
By contrast, I think season three has been remarkably good. Each episode has had a lot to it, and there have been genuine surprises, and real emotional moments.
Between the recent birth episode, and (to a lesser extent) Prometheus, I feel like C-section horror has become a new sub-genre. And one that is very effective in, well, horrifying me. I think the way they did this not only took us comic readers by suprise, but actually trumped the comic. I mean, what happens in the comic is horrifying, too. But Lori making the decision to save the baby over her, and for Maggie and Carl to have to standby, honor, and make that decision happen? As well as Rick seeing them walk out with the baby and not her, and register what has happened? Worse. That was actually worse than the shocking moment in WD #48.
I actually didn't mind that T-Dog was killed before we got to really know him. Something read true about that. Had there been an episode putting a lot of focus on him, we would just know that was setting up his death. And I liked the way, after his death, that Glenn just spoke about him being this solid, great guy. And it made me think back to his presence on the show and that was true. He was never flashy, or in the forefront, but he has been this reliable, solid guy. And suddenly he was dead. That felt right.
And I respectfully disagree with @CourtOfOwls about the Governor. In the comics, the Governor stories where when I almost jumped off Walking Dead. I found him to be the thing that comic didn't need: a (literally) mustache-twirling, capital-B Baddie. A supervillain. Up to that point the conflicts and human antagonists had been more complicated than that. And I thought the Governor was a swing towards the conventional.
So I was worried that we would be getting him in the TV show, as well, and I think David Morrisey has been excellent. I believe him as someone people would listen to, and follow. His secrets seem like secrets. He puts a comforting face on Woodbury. (Where the look of the Governor in the comics makes it seem a little more like you live someplace with a pirate king).
That said, as much as I like and believe the Governor on the show, some of the ideas from the comic don't fit very well in this Woodbury. I thought the gladiator scene in the show just didn't work. It is one thing when Woodbury has a Wild West feel, including frontier justice, and the arena is a place where rule breakers must become gladiators. I mean, in the comic that was still pretty over the top, but it fit the Woodbury of the comic.
But the Woodbury of the TV show, which seems to be doing such a good job of pretending to be normal, just doesn't seem the place where the citizens would want two of the key people WHO KEEP THEM ALL SAFE to fight each other for no reason, and risk being bitten by zombies (or so it is made to look) while beating each other up. Sure, I get the whole barbaric time/bloodlust explanation, but I just don't think it works in this case.
So, I am glad to be caught up, and I think is an excellent season so far. Looking forward to more.
Also, given what has ALREADY happened to them, I don't want to imagine what is up their sleeve for the upcoming episode titled "Made to Suffer".
@David_D you, like so many others, really seem to think that Season 3 of TWD is so action-packed, and faster moving, than the prior seasons. And, as a result, seem to like this season the best so far because of all this so-called action (among other reasons you & others have noted). I wonder if part of this disparity between my feelings about the season, and the feelings of the majority of you men on the forums, and the CGS podcast, is due to a gender difference.
To me, Season 1 was almost perfect in it's combination of setting up the story premise, drama, and action. We were introduced to the main starting cast, as well as the back story & the current state of the survivors at that time. The pilot episode was amazing! When, in the first 10 minutes of the show, Rick blows away a child zombie I knew this was not going to be like any other show on TV! The trip to the CDC was a great twist, and a nice diversion from the comic book series, which did not ever have the CDC in it.
As a woman, I LOVED the character development and slow build-up in Season 2, which was coupled with some very intense moments. I think it was integral in order to have any feelings of caring or concern for what happens to the characters on the show, that time was taken to get to know each one of them, their relationships, affinities, alliances, etc. Season 2 made the cast less one-dimensional.
And, as for action, Shane's fall into a near sociopath, & the sacrifice of Otis - holy shit! I couldn't believe that! Carl's near death experience, Dale's death, the search for Sophia & ultimately finding her in the barn as a zombie - ALL of that and more was PLENTY of action, COUPLED with emotion and drama. The horrors of Season 2 were more subtle, more psychological, and more personal. When Lori tried to instigate Rick into killing Shane, telling Rick that Shane is a threat, etc. - WOW! I was blown away by that.
Season 3 SUCKS in comparison! Character development is virtually non-existent. Who cares about anybody in Woodbury?? Who cares about the other prisoners who were there before Rick & co?? The only "action" so far has been a lot of zombie killing, a painfully slow dragging out of the real action that should be taking place in Woodbury, and some drama over Lori's death. So far, I have found nothing especially interesting about this season. I am sure more things will happen - especially as The Governor's true agenda is revealed - but, to me, the season has been a big disappointment thus far.
I think it may be that men (in general perhaps?) care less about character development and plot than women (in general perhaps?). Men are more entertained by mindless action - whether it be video games, porn, 3 Stooges type humor, juvenile humor like "American Pie", etc. If the whole TV series was just zombie killing and fight scenes, that would be all you men needed to find it the best show ever. Men are more visual and action-oriented, and women are more relationship oriented - in GENERAL. (Now, PLEASE don't get your panties in a bunch! I am NOT accusing men of being shallow, mindless, or superficial. I am just putting a hypothesis out there based upon what I have noticed and experienced in this world - and on this forum - in regard to certain opinions and the gender of the person(s) with those opinions. I could be COMPLETELY WRONG. I am, after all, speculating. But, it would certainly be interesting to find out if, in fact, there is a statistically significant difference between the thoughts of women and the thoughts of men on the 3 seasons of TWD so far. So, if you know any women on this forum - or women you can encourage to get on the forum - tell them to post their thoughts soon! I'd love to hear from the other ladies.)
@CourtOfOwls I think it is an interesting question, and of course, it would be great to have as many points of view in the discussion as possible from all genders. BUT, I also think we shouldn't see any one person's take through the lens of gender. As even this thread or many other male-dominated conversations here can show a wide range of opinion and little consensus.
While I think there is demographic truth to the points you are making, and certainly what sells to what demographic in entertainment supports the generalizations you are making about what men want, but at the end of the day we are all individuals. And just as we would not look to you to speak for your whole gender, what I like it not entirely dictated by mine. And I know that is not what you were suggesting. But I just wanted to put it out there, lest anyone reading along fall too much into thinking there is simply a male reaction and a female one, as if two monoliths.
To leave the general and get specific to my take, I will say that I wasn't talking about action in the conventional male way you are talking about. And I actually didn't use the word. And I don't bring that up to nitpick or wrangle over a word, but rather because I think you and I actually are looking for much the same thing in the show, we just may have different tastes when it comes to pacing (and that may be gendered, or maybe it isn't- I feel like, in general, I have more patience for pace than my wife does. She is the sort of producer who wants to relentlessly cut).
I could be misreading you, but I feel like in talking about action, or in theorizing about the male viewers, you are talking about the amount of fighting and zombie killing. And that wasn't what I was praising in S3. By putting it this way:
I thought the second season had some strong moments, but dragged. It feels like they had a season bible for 8 episodes, and then when the first season hit such big numbers that story got stretched to 13 (I have no evidence for this, just a hunch). I feel like, while waiting around for the big story beats, there were a lot of Survivor-esque scenes built around 'and now SHE is mad at HER, and HE is mad at HIM. . .'
By contrast, I think season three has been remarkably good. Each episode has had a lot to it, and there have been genuine surprises, and real emotional moments.
I am also dealing in character drama and emotional moments. Those are the real currency of the show, as they are in the comic, more than the zombie killing. And, for me, while there were some standout moments in S2 (and by moments, I am talking about a lot of the same ones you are) I feel like they were spread out over a much longer time than S1 was, or S3 may be. S1 and, so far, S3 have had more moments per episode. And there has been less of the moments or subplots that felt contrived to me. So my point is not about violence vs. drama.
To be specific- I love drama and character. My absolute favorite current shows (Boardwalk Empire and Louie) are much more driven by characters and emotional moments than they are by action. My all-time favorite show, The Wire, may have dealt in some conventional areas like policework and crime, but it was a series with less shots fired than an average episode of Walking Dead.
For me, what I am saying about S3 vs. S2 is not about which has more zombie killing, but rather which feels like it has more story, and more essential story, per episode.
PS- I think it is fantastic that you take time to make thoughtful and long contributions to the forums. I tend towards a long post myself when I am interested in a topic, as is clear from this one. But the lack of paragraph breaks make them very difficult to read on the computer screen. And I worry that, faced with such a dense piece of text, some users might skip past or get lost in the middle. To make sure that doesn't happen, would you mind breaking up the text a little more? Thanks.
I really like the show... but I also really liked the comic... up to about this point.
We are approaching the roundabout area when I stopped reading the comics. Why did I stop reading the comics? Because it became too much for me. For those who have read the comic, and you remember what happens around this time, you probably know exactly what I'm talking about. For those who haven't read it, I won't spoil anything.
I had hoped as this series moved forward, diverging from the comic storylines, that maybe, just maybe what turned me from the comic would be avoided, or at least, delayed a few more seasons, but right now... it seems very close.
Depending on how closely this follows the comic... I may be done with this show very shortly.
It is an odd feeling, to be thoroughly enjoying something, and keenly aware that that enjoyment may end very soon.
I'm curious how you're feeling about the show now.
I'm still in a waiting mode. Although, with the current deviations that the show has taken, it may be altogether possible that it might be more emotionally devastating than it was in the comic. I don't really need that much more of a punch to the gut... but so far, I'm still watching.
@CourtOfOwls I think it is an interesting question, and of course, it would be great to have as many points of view in the discussion as possible from all genders. BUT, I also think we shouldn't see any one person's take through the lens of gender. As even this thread or many other male-dominated conversations here can show a wide range of opinion and little consensus.
While I think there is demographic truth to the points you are making, and certainly what sells to what demographic in entertainment supports the generalizations you are making about what men want, but at the end of the day we are all individuals. And just as we would not look to you to speak for your whole gender, what I like it not entirely dictated by mine. And I know that is not what you were suggesting. But I just wanted to put it out there, lest anyone reading along fall too much into thinking there is simply a male reaction and a female one, as if two monoliths.
Very well said! It is definitely NOT my intention to insinuate that ALL men think/act/react/feel/enjoy/hate etc the same things or the same way. Nor do I dare to presume to speak for ALL women. It is just interesting to me that the overwhelming response of men to Season 3 is that it is the best season so far, and so full of "action". It is interesting to me because I feel exactly the opposite. Gender MAY be part of the explanation for this, or it could just be that I rarely think like any body else does - regardless of their gender. :) Without enough other female viewpoints on the forum - and not really having any female friends that watch the show AND read the comics as I do - there is no way for me to gauge for sure if gender has any impact on perceptions of the season.
Oh, & BTW, I also did not mean to imply that YOU, @David_D, specifically, are enjoying Season 3 because of all of the "action" or zombie killing action. That was more of a general statement made because I have noticed that there is a large majority of posts on this thread stating that the posters feel this season is so full of action compared to the prior 2. So, I am sorry if I made it seem like I was singling you out - and I completely hear what you are saying in this regard.
Another thing I appreciate is your telling me about breaking up my posts into paragraphs! Since this is my first foray onto the forums (despite being a listener for several years), I was not sure if the computer program would allow that. Some places I have posted in other websites only allow for continuous sentences and, even if I tried to make new paragraphs, the final post would be auto-reconfigured into one seamless paragraph with no breaks. It is good to know that I can post in an easier to read format! I will go back and edit my prior post to make it easier to read. So thanks for that! :)
Overall, I think we are in agreement about likes/dislikes. However, where we disagree is that you feel that each episode of Season 3 "feels like it has more story, and more essential story, per episode." I have not seen even ONE essential story in Season 3 yet - except for Lori's death. Most of the episodes so far - to me - seems to be filler & uninteresting. Part of this is because I found this part of the comic book to be very intense: the emotion and relief of finding the prison, the finding of prisoners still alive and not being sure if they are safe and/or trustworthy, Carol wanting to be in an open-relationship with Rick and Lori, her ultimate relationship with with another character who Michonne hooked up with (I can't recall his name at the moment), all the horror of The Governor's sadism and his attack on the prison, etc etc. The pivotal nature of this part of the comic book to the cast of characters makes it important to me that they get it right in the TV series. My feeling is, if the TV series is going to include this part of the comic book on the show, then this is the part that they should be as close to the true source as possible. There are things that happen much later in the comic that also should be as true to the source as possible, if they are going to bother to put it on the show at all, but THIS PARTICULAR part of the comic is more important because it is the FIRST big deal to happen to the characters.
Another part of the reason I am so disappointed in this season is because of the poor casting of The Governor. I think this guy is terrible, and it is hard for me to get past it. I hate that they are making Andrea "fall" for him - which doesn't happen in the comics. It's like the TV series is including SOME aspects of the prison and Woodbury, and then making up the rest. Sadly though, the things they are including from the comic are minimal, and the stuff they are making up and adding to the story is just plain crap. Again, this is likely just because I am pissed they are changing it all. My feeling is that, if they are going to change this story, just don't even put it in the show at all. Don't have a Governor or a Woodbury. Just make up a whole new story line and bad guy. It just is very hard for me to get past, and it is coloring my enjoyment of the rest of the stuff going on in the season.
On the plus side, I loved Michonne in the comic book, and I am also loving her on Season 3 - she is the one perfect actor casting on the show as far as I'm concerned, next to Herschell. If there is any saving grace for this season for me, it is her. Of course, I will keep watching each week - I already paid for the season pass on Itunes - but I don't think I will ever find this to be my favorite season.
Thanks for your responses, taking the time to read mine, and enjoy TWD!!!!!
Fantastic. I loved him on The Wire, and saw him onstage a few years ago in a production of Lanford Wilson's Joe Turner's Come and Gone. He is an excellent actor.
@CourtOfOwls Thanks for taking the time to elaborate and expand on your comments. It is good to hear more of your thinking on this . . . even if I am on the exact opposite side on a lot of it!
It could be that for me I was glad for the TV series' very different Governor because I disliked the Governor so much in the comics. As I mentioned in an earlier post, The Governor story was almost my jumping-off point for reading the Walking Dead comics. After a series that had mostly very complicated, layered, and generally very human-scale characters up to that point, I was disappointed that the Governor of the comics felt like an out-and-out villain and sadist. Not that there aren't terrible people in the real world, too. But to conveniently put our characters in conflict with one just felt very conventional. Very easy. I agree with you that the prison issues are some of the best ones in the comic. The question of whether or not, at the end of the world, there is still a question of the differences between citizens and convicts was a really rich dramatic area to play in. (To be fair, Brian K. Vaughan got there first in issues of Y: The Last Man. But, still.) And it frustrated me in the comic that those dramas got interrupted by encountering an Evil Villain. There were already monsters in the woods. And The Governor felt just as one-dimensional to me. Another monster.
So when I saw that the Governor of the TV show was going to be a smooth-faced charmer, I got excited by that idea. Clearly, with his behind-closed-door secrets, we are going to be headed towards some of the same territory (for better or for worse). But I feel like what they set up for the TV audience is a chance for the characters (and, by extension, the audience) to be fooled for a little while. To maybe consider for a moment that the Governor might have the right idea. That he and his people are actually doing a better job of surviving than Rick and his group. That he is like the "no more democracy" Rick, but a more successful version. And, with each glimpse of the real Governor, we come to see that actually he is very dangerous. That it's a trap.
I feel like (and I might be remembering wrong, it was a long time ago and that trade is lent out to a friend) in the comics we met the Governor and almost immediately knew he was a monster. He looked like something out of Mad Max, and I think he very quickly got into monster mode.
I feel like the TV show is using a Governor with a smoother, more convincing public face to set up for a slower revelation. And, maybe, to create a potential Andrea vs. The Rest of the Group conflict. Maybe he is just convincing enough that he will succeed in convincing her. I don't think the Governor of the comics (or the novels, for that matter- I gave the novels a chance hoping that hundreds of pages of prose could improve and deepen the character and, for me, they didn't) ever convinced anyone. He just terrorized.
It's funny- and it goes to show that all individuals will want different things- but for me, I love that the Governor is different, and while I agree that Michonne is the most on the nose as far as casting and portrayal, I actually think that makes her one of the weakest characters in the show. To me, so far, she is just too over- the-top, too capital-C Character to fit. Everyone else feels like a believable person (albeit ones that have a more than average abilities to make headshot after headshot even at a distance). She feels like something out of a Quentin Tarantino movie. Like she is from a different world than the rest of the stories. Even moreso than the character in the comics, who had a flashy, memorable entrance, but didn't need to be a near-silent badass ALL the time. I know she is a fan favorite, but I don't know that the show needed a Snake-Eyes.
@David_D I definitely hear what you are saying, and think I understand your point of view & reasoning. I have read the posts of other people who also did not like The Governor in the comic book, so are OK with the differences between the TV series & the comic book. I do not LIKE The Governor, per se. I mean, I didn't think he was a great character, or even the best part of the comic book series to date. I mean I think he was a PIVOTAL character in a pivotal part of the comic book series.
Up until the characters encountered him, their biggest fear was zombies. Since, overall, a major theme of TWD comics has been that humans are capable of far more horrors than zombies - worse because humans act with choice, consciousness, & awareness of their actions - The Governor was key to that realization. Whether or not that character could have been handled differently in the comic book can be debated, but I do feel it marked the beginning of the overarching theme of the whole series.
The Governor of the comics - in terms of physical looks - did, indeed, look more obviously creepy & suspicious than does The Governor of the TV series. Yet, I think Kirkman was still able to pull off some doubt about the extent of his evil for a bit. He had his loyal townspeople and band of followers, who were mostly in the dark about his behind-the-scenes activities just as on the TV series. Sure, the comic book character was over-the-top sadistic, but again, I think that was just to hammer the points home of how the world has changed, who & what the truly scary things are, and what - in the end - does anyone have to look forward to beyond survival in a world of people completely changed by this zombie apocalypse.
I think The Governor's role in the TV series is being set up very differently than The Governor of the comic book. As I said, for me as a reader of the comic, I would much prefer that they just eliminated the character from the show all together and made up a new one in that case. When you say that the TV series Governor is more subtle and allows the audience to be fooled a bit by his public face, I agree. But, I agree that this is true only for viewers who do not read the comic. Anyone who reads the comic is already NOT fooled. We already know this guy, so this casting and slow build-up detracts from the story for me because I want them to get right to it. I believe that viewers who do not read the comic have a distinct advantage over us readers of the comic because the non-readers have no expectations, no pre-drawn conclusions, no foreknowledge, etc. In the case of The Governor, ignorance of these things is, indeed, bliss.
I don't like how they introduced Michonne & Andrea to The Governor and the town. I certainly hope that they do not - as you suggest - set Andrea up against Rick & the others. The fact that Glen & Maggie have now been brought into Woodbury will be interesting to that end to see what Andrea says to them about The Governor. On the TV show, Andrea sure does know how to pick them tho! First Shane & now The Governor! With the loss of Dale, her moral compass is gone. All her anger, grief, and loss is coming out in this way that makes characters like Shane & The Governor more appealling to her as they more obviously display the character traits she has inside herself, but isn't quite ready yet to see and accept in herself.
I definitely don't like how they have been handling the prison situation. So many things happened when they were in the prison, and I think the TV series would be better served to take and use the slow build-up aspect in regard to this part of the series. I would much rather they jumped right into the Governor and his horrors, but took time getting to know the prisoners, the survivors in the prison, etc.
I don't know. I guess I am going to have to get over (or adjust) my feelings about this season. The TV series is what it is. So I will have to accept it and move on. Since I have a 4 day weekend, I think I will re-watch all the episodes of this season and try to see it with new eyes - the eyes of someone who hasn't read the comic - and see if I can do it. Your thoughts/posts have given me something to think about to this end - so I definitely appreciate that and thank you for your responses!! I will also re-read these parts of the comic book, as I, too, am certainly forgetting some of the many things that happened so long ago in the series.
I DO love Michonne tho!! I won't let you take that away from me!!!! LOL
Dang the governor is going "naughty time" treatment of Maggie. First making her sub-human in treating her bad then giving her a taste of his brand of crazy. Glenn went badass on the walker. With Rick's group going after Woodbury and getting into hot zombie shit to save the two lost members of his group as they approach the town for the raid in the next episode.
Another strong episode!! w/the highlights being Glen vs. zombie and Maggie vs. Governor. The latter being quite creepy. OTOH, the comic slightly ruined it for me - b/c as well done as it was, in the back of my head I'm thinking "is this a copout? do they not have the balls, so to speak, to rape her (as occurred in a similar scene in the comic)? That's a "disappointment" only a comic reader of the book can have. OTOH, perhaps Michonne will get caught on the little commando raid, and the Gov will rape her and beat her repeatedly, like in the comic.
Not sure if they'll do the serial killer thing - seems like at this point it might be a bit of a diversion. But, it could mean we're heading to 2 cliffhangers: Rick/Daryl/Michonne/Oscar caught, while Beth or Carol is in severe danger (perhaps Beth or Carol comes across the severed (and still "alive") head of the other, while Axel titters to himself holding a bloody knife!).
That Michonne is quite the cagey one - notice she doesn't mention anything about Merle and Andrea to rick, despite knowing they'd be interested to hear about it.
The hermit scene was a bit of an odd interlude.
I think it's a little unrealistic that the Gov knew about the Prison, but didn't think it was takeable. OTOH, and makes our guys seem all the more formidable. They're definitely a tighter oiled machine than the Gov's crew - who can't even shoot an arrow straight.
It's amazing how much better overall the show is this year!
Am I right in thinking that there's too much to wrap up in the mid-season finale? Darryl and Merle, rescuing Maggie and Glen, Andrea uncovers the truth about the Governor etc. I'm guessing the episode ends with Andrea pointing a gun at someone who then turns around to reveal it's Rick.
Comments
X_X
http://www.rpsteeves.com/2012/11/wrapped-up-like-zombie-review-walking.html
I'm curious how you're feeling about the show now.
I read the comic book, & have seen many interviews with Kirkman. I know that it was never Kirkman's plan to have the TV series be exactly like the books. I have been more than happy with all the changes - new characters, new situations, etc. - up to this season. But, now, the TV series has come to the place which was the most significant and pivotal chapter for the comic book characters. This part of the book - the prison & the Governor - was the very 1st serious challenge Rick's crew had to face, and showed everyone that the world around them had indeed changed. That the sickest thing out there was not the zombies, but the humans.
If AMC was going to include this in the series, it is my feeling that they should have done so in as true a way to the comic as possible. The casting of The Governor is crucial to that end. The actor hired to play The Governor is terrible. I don't know if it was a financial thing (he was cheaper to pay than better known, or just plain better actor), or Kirkman just lost his mind. This guy looks & acts nothing like The Governor. A better choice would be Danny Trejo, who at least LOOKS like The Governor.
This failure to select an appropriate actor is impossible for me to get past. He is not believable in the role. This actor - coupled with how AMC changed the story with Michonne & Andrea's experience with The Governor & his compound - takes me right out of the story. Sure, AMC is including some of the things from the book - the Governor has a daughter zombie, the gladiator style arena fight with zombies perilously close - but, the overall telling of the story fails miserably in my opinion. Sure, there are some good things that have happened in this season. Lori getting killed is one of them - although I would have loved her to have been killed and off the show in season one, as she was the most annoying character on it, other than Carl who seems to have no range of affect or emotion (surely there are better child actors out there). Rick's over the top reaction to Lori's death - & a whole episode wasted on him being hysterical while his son and new born dtr are left to others - was ridiculous. I think viewers got that he was upset at the end of the episode she was killed in. It didn't really need to take up another whole episode.
Anyway, I realize I will likely get 100 or more "dislikes" & "disagrees", etc. That's fine. I don't post to be popular, and I know I am a very minority opinion. But I just had to get this off my chest because I really can't understand why anybody who reads the comics can think this season is good. People who don't read the comics - sure! They have no expectations. It is all new to them. They can just go along for the ride. But, I, for one, am sad and disappointed that Kirkman - as executive producer on the show - did not pay as much respect to his own story as he could have.
I'll admit it... I fastforward thru the telephone parts... Rick's descent into madness just doesnt interest me. Going crazy in a crazy world is passe. Wish they had held off on Crazy Rick, but if it serves a purpose, I'll give it a pass. Was willing to suspend disbelief that Mearl would run into Glen and Maggie, and I thought Dania played Michone as a walker very well to make it to the fence as Rick find her. I liked the teen Haley (though seriously how many teen girl archers are we going to see on TV/Pop-Culture at the same time, we get it Hunger Games is popular!), I thought the talk about people having to kill their own family was thoughtful and well done... hope we see more of her.
I understand if people don't like it, but I am just loving this season. More character development, more danger and crazy Rick...
I love the dual storylines, and seeing them come together last night was great. I can't get last season out of my head, so I keep expecting everything to take forever to happen, so I'm still surprised every time the plot takes a leap forward.
I have been consuming a lot (perhaps too much) Walking Dead content lately: I read the comic the day it comes out (been doing that for a long time now); I am halfway through the video game (though I get very little time to play it); I recently did the second Walking Dead as an audiobook; and apropos to this thread, I finally caught up on the entire second season of WD, and the new third season episodes, in the course of maybe 2 1/2 weeks of not going to bed when I should.
I think the only things left would be buying Walking Dead food, music, clothes, seeing a Walking Dead play, and hiring some guy to paint himself gray and chase me around.
Anyway, glad to finally be caught up to the rest of the culture, especially as spoilers have become harder and harder to avoid on social media.
I thought the second season had some strong moments, but dragged. It feels like they had a season bible for 8 episodes, and then when the first season hit such big numbers that story got stretched to 13 (I have no evidence for this, just a hunch). I feel like, while waiting around for the big story beats, there were a lot of Survivor-esque scenes built around 'and now SHE is mad at HER, and HE is mad at HIM. . .'
By contrast, I think season three has been remarkably good. Each episode has had a lot to it, and there have been genuine surprises, and real emotional moments.
Between the recent birth episode, and (to a lesser extent) Prometheus, I feel like C-section horror has become a new sub-genre. And one that is very effective in, well, horrifying me. I think the way they did this not only took us comic readers by suprise, but actually trumped the comic. I mean, what happens in the comic is horrifying, too. But Lori making the decision to save the baby over her, and for Maggie and Carl to have to standby, honor, and make that decision happen? As well as Rick seeing them walk out with the baby and not her, and register what has happened? Worse. That was actually worse than the shocking moment in WD #48.
I actually didn't mind that T-Dog was killed before we got to really know him. Something read true about that. Had there been an episode putting a lot of focus on him, we would just know that was setting up his death. And I liked the way, after his death, that Glenn just spoke about him being this solid, great guy. And it made me think back to his presence on the show and that was true. He was never flashy, or in the forefront, but he has been this reliable, solid guy. And suddenly he was dead. That felt right.
And I respectfully disagree with @CourtOfOwls about the Governor. In the comics, the Governor stories where when I almost jumped off Walking Dead. I found him to be the thing that comic didn't need: a (literally) mustache-twirling, capital-B Baddie. A supervillain. Up to that point the conflicts and human antagonists had been more complicated than that. And I thought the Governor was a swing towards the conventional.
So I was worried that we would be getting him in the TV show, as well, and I think David Morrisey has been excellent. I believe him as someone people would listen to, and follow. His secrets seem like secrets. He puts a comforting face on Woodbury. (Where the look of the Governor in the comics makes it seem a little more like you live someplace with a pirate king).
That said, as much as I like and believe the Governor on the show, some of the ideas from the comic don't fit very well in this Woodbury. I thought the gladiator scene in the show just didn't work. It is one thing when Woodbury has a Wild West feel, including frontier justice, and the arena is a place where rule breakers must become gladiators. I mean, in the comic that was still pretty over the top, but it fit the Woodbury of the comic.
But the Woodbury of the TV show, which seems to be doing such a good job of pretending to be normal, just doesn't seem the place where the citizens would want two of the key people WHO KEEP THEM ALL SAFE to fight each other for no reason, and risk being bitten by zombies (or so it is made to look) while beating each other up. Sure, I get the whole barbaric time/bloodlust explanation, but I just don't think it works in this case.
So, I am glad to be caught up, and I think is an excellent season so far. Looking forward to more.
Also, given what has ALREADY happened to them, I don't want to imagine what is up their sleeve for the upcoming episode titled "Made to Suffer".
To me, Season 1 was almost perfect in it's combination of setting up the story premise, drama, and action. We were introduced to the main starting cast, as well as the back story & the current state of the survivors at that time. The pilot episode was amazing! When, in the first 10 minutes of the show, Rick blows away a child zombie I knew this was not going to be like any other show on TV! The trip to the CDC was a great twist, and a nice diversion from the comic book series, which did not ever have the CDC in it.
As a woman, I LOVED the character development and slow build-up in Season 2, which was coupled with some very intense moments. I think it was integral in order to have any feelings of caring or concern for what happens to the characters on the show, that time was taken to get to know each one of them, their relationships, affinities, alliances, etc. Season 2 made the cast less one-dimensional.
And, as for action, Shane's fall into a near sociopath, & the sacrifice of Otis - holy shit! I couldn't believe that! Carl's near death experience, Dale's death, the search for Sophia & ultimately finding her in the barn as a zombie - ALL of that and more was PLENTY of action, COUPLED with emotion and drama. The horrors of Season 2 were more subtle, more psychological, and more personal. When Lori tried to instigate Rick into killing Shane, telling Rick that Shane is a threat, etc. - WOW! I was blown away by that.
Season 3 SUCKS in comparison! Character development is virtually non-existent. Who cares about anybody in Woodbury?? Who cares about the other prisoners who were there before Rick & co?? The only "action" so far has been a lot of zombie killing, a painfully slow dragging out of the real action that should be taking place in Woodbury, and some drama over Lori's death. So far, I have found nothing especially interesting about this season. I am sure more things will happen - especially as The Governor's true agenda is revealed - but, to me, the season has been a big disappointment thus far.
I think it may be that men (in general perhaps?) care less about character development and plot than women (in general perhaps?). Men are more entertained by mindless action - whether it be video games, porn, 3 Stooges type humor, juvenile humor like "American Pie", etc. If the whole TV series was just zombie killing and fight scenes, that would be all you men needed to find it the best show ever. Men are more visual and action-oriented, and women are more relationship oriented - in GENERAL. (Now, PLEASE don't get your panties in a bunch! I am NOT accusing men of being shallow, mindless, or superficial. I am just putting a hypothesis out there based upon what I have noticed and experienced in this world - and on this forum - in regard to certain opinions and the gender of the person(s) with those opinions. I could be COMPLETELY WRONG. I am, after all, speculating. But, it would certainly be interesting to find out if, in fact, there is a statistically significant difference between the thoughts of women and the thoughts of men on the 3 seasons of TWD so far. So, if you know any women on this forum - or women you can encourage to get on the forum - tell them to post their thoughts soon! I'd love to hear from the other ladies.)
While I think there is demographic truth to the points you are making, and certainly what sells to what demographic in entertainment supports the generalizations you are making about what men want, but at the end of the day we are all individuals. And just as we would not look to you to speak for your whole gender, what I like it not entirely dictated by mine. And I know that is not what you were suggesting. But I just wanted to put it out there, lest anyone reading along fall too much into thinking there is simply a male reaction and a female one, as if two monoliths.
To leave the general and get specific to my take, I will say that I wasn't talking about action in the conventional male way you are talking about. And I actually didn't use the word. And I don't bring that up to nitpick or wrangle over a word, but rather because I think you and I actually are looking for much the same thing in the show, we just may have different tastes when it comes to pacing (and that may be gendered, or maybe it isn't- I feel like, in general, I have more patience for pace than my wife does. She is the sort of producer who wants to relentlessly cut).
I could be misreading you, but I feel like in talking about action, or in theorizing about the male viewers, you are talking about the amount of fighting and zombie killing. And that wasn't what I was praising in S3. By putting it this way: I am also dealing in character drama and emotional moments. Those are the real currency of the show, as they are in the comic, more than the zombie killing. And, for me, while there were some standout moments in S2 (and by moments, I am talking about a lot of the same ones you are) I feel like they were spread out over a much longer time than S1 was, or S3 may be. S1 and, so far, S3 have had more moments per episode. And there has been less of the moments or subplots that felt contrived to me. So my point is not about violence vs. drama.
To be specific- I love drama and character. My absolute favorite current shows (Boardwalk Empire and Louie) are much more driven by characters and emotional moments than they are by action. My all-time favorite show, The Wire, may have dealt in some conventional areas like policework and crime, but it was a series with less shots fired than an average episode of Walking Dead.
For me, what I am saying about S3 vs. S2 is not about which has more zombie killing, but rather which feels like it has more story, and more essential story, per episode.
PS- I think it is fantastic that you take time to make thoughtful and long contributions to the forums. I tend towards a long post myself when I am interested in a topic, as is clear from this one. But the lack of paragraph breaks make them very difficult to read on the computer screen. And I worry that, faced with such a dense piece of text, some users might skip past or get lost in the middle. To make sure that doesn't happen, would you mind breaking up the text a little more? Thanks.
Oh, & BTW, I also did not mean to imply that YOU, @David_D, specifically, are enjoying Season 3 because of all of the "action" or zombie killing action. That was more of a general statement made because I have noticed that there is a large majority of posts on this thread stating that the posters feel this season is so full of action compared to the prior 2. So, I am sorry if I made it seem like I was singling you out - and I completely hear what you are saying in this regard.
Another thing I appreciate is your telling me about breaking up my posts into paragraphs! Since this is my first foray onto the forums (despite being a listener for several years), I was not sure if the computer program would allow that. Some places I have posted in other websites only allow for continuous sentences and, even if I tried to make new paragraphs, the final post would be auto-reconfigured into one seamless paragraph with no breaks. It is good to know that I can post in an easier to read format! I will go back and edit my prior post to make it easier to read. So thanks for that! :)
Overall, I think we are in agreement about likes/dislikes. However, where we disagree is that you feel that each episode of Season 3 "feels like it has more story, and more essential story, per episode." I have not seen even ONE essential story in Season 3 yet - except for Lori's death. Most of the episodes so far - to me - seems to be filler & uninteresting. Part of this is because I found this part of the comic book to be very intense: the emotion and relief of finding the prison, the finding of prisoners still alive and not being sure if they are safe and/or trustworthy, Carol wanting to be in an open-relationship with Rick and Lori, her ultimate relationship with with another character who Michonne hooked up with (I can't recall his name at the moment), all the horror of The Governor's sadism and his attack on the prison, etc etc. The pivotal nature of this part of the comic book to the cast of characters makes it important to me that they get it right in the TV series. My feeling is, if the TV series is going to include this part of the comic book on the show, then this is the part that they should be as close to the true source as possible. There are things that happen much later in the comic that also should be as true to the source as possible, if they are going to bother to put it on the show at all, but THIS PARTICULAR part of the comic is more important because it is the FIRST big deal to happen to the characters.
Another part of the reason I am so disappointed in this season is because of the poor casting of The Governor. I think this guy is terrible, and it is hard for me to get past it. I hate that they are making Andrea "fall" for him - which doesn't happen in the comics. It's like the TV series is including SOME aspects of the prison and Woodbury, and then making up the rest. Sadly though, the things they are including from the comic are minimal, and the stuff they are making up and adding to the story is just plain crap. Again, this is likely just because I am pissed they are changing it all. My feeling is that, if they are going to change this story, just don't even put it in the show at all. Don't have a Governor or a Woodbury. Just make up a whole new story line and bad guy. It just is very hard for me to get past, and it is coloring my enjoyment of the rest of the stuff going on in the season.
On the plus side, I loved Michonne in the comic book, and I am also loving her on Season 3 - she is the one perfect actor casting on the show as far as I'm concerned, next to Herschell. If there is any saving grace for this season for me, it is her. Of course, I will keep watching each week - I already paid for the season pass on Itunes - but I don't think I will ever find this to be my favorite season.
Thanks for your responses, taking the time to read mine, and enjoy TWD!!!!!
It could be that for me I was glad for the TV series' very different Governor because I disliked the Governor so much in the comics. As I mentioned in an earlier post, The Governor story was almost my jumping-off point for reading the Walking Dead comics. After a series that had mostly very complicated, layered, and generally very human-scale characters up to that point, I was disappointed that the Governor of the comics felt like an out-and-out villain and sadist. Not that there aren't terrible people in the real world, too. But to conveniently put our characters in conflict with one just felt very conventional. Very easy. I agree with you that the prison issues are some of the best ones in the comic. The question of whether or not, at the end of the world, there is still a question of the differences between citizens and convicts was a really rich dramatic area to play in. (To be fair, Brian K. Vaughan got there first in issues of Y: The Last Man. But, still.) And it frustrated me in the comic that those dramas got interrupted by encountering an Evil Villain. There were already monsters in the woods. And The Governor felt just as one-dimensional to me. Another monster.
So when I saw that the Governor of the TV show was going to be a smooth-faced charmer, I got excited by that idea. Clearly, with his behind-closed-door secrets, we are going to be headed towards some of the same territory (for better or for worse). But I feel like what they set up for the TV audience is a chance for the characters (and, by extension, the audience) to be fooled for a little while. To maybe consider for a moment that the Governor might have the right idea. That he and his people are actually doing a better job of surviving than Rick and his group. That he is like the "no more democracy" Rick, but a more successful version. And, with each glimpse of the real Governor, we come to see that actually he is very dangerous. That it's a trap.
I feel like (and I might be remembering wrong, it was a long time ago and that trade is lent out to a friend) in the comics we met the Governor and almost immediately knew he was a monster. He looked like something out of Mad Max, and I think he very quickly got into monster mode.
I feel like the TV show is using a Governor with a smoother, more convincing public face to set up for a slower revelation. And, maybe, to create a potential Andrea vs. The Rest of the Group conflict. Maybe he is just convincing enough that he will succeed in convincing her. I don't think the Governor of the comics (or the novels, for that matter- I gave the novels a chance hoping that hundreds of pages of prose could improve and deepen the character and, for me, they didn't) ever convinced anyone. He just terrorized.
It's funny- and it goes to show that all individuals will want different things- but for me, I love that the Governor is different, and while I agree that Michonne is the most on the nose as far as casting and portrayal, I actually think that makes her one of the weakest characters in the show. To me, so far, she is just too over- the-top, too capital-C Character to fit. Everyone else feels like a believable person (albeit ones that have a more than average abilities to make headshot after headshot even at a distance). She feels like something out of a Quentin Tarantino movie. Like she is from a different world than the rest of the stories. Even moreso than the character in the comics, who had a flashy, memorable entrance, but didn't need to be a near-silent badass ALL the time. I know she is a fan favorite, but I don't know that the show needed a Snake-Eyes.
Up until the characters encountered him, their biggest fear was zombies. Since, overall, a major theme of TWD comics has been that humans are capable of far more horrors than zombies - worse because humans act with choice, consciousness, & awareness of their actions - The Governor was key to that realization. Whether or not that character could have been handled differently in the comic book can be debated, but I do feel it marked the beginning of the overarching theme of the whole series.
The Governor of the comics - in terms of physical looks - did, indeed, look more obviously creepy & suspicious than does The Governor of the TV series. Yet, I think Kirkman was still able to pull off some doubt about the extent of his evil for a bit. He had his loyal townspeople and band of followers, who were mostly in the dark about his behind-the-scenes activities just as on the TV series. Sure, the comic book character was over-the-top sadistic, but again, I think that was just to hammer the points home of how the world has changed, who & what the truly scary things are, and what - in the end - does anyone have to look forward to beyond survival in a world of people completely changed by this zombie apocalypse.
I think The Governor's role in the TV series is being set up very differently than The Governor of the comic book. As I said, for me as a reader of the comic, I would much prefer that they just eliminated the character from the show all together and made up a new one in that case. When you say that the TV series Governor is more subtle and allows the audience to be fooled a bit by his public face, I agree. But, I agree that this is true only for viewers who do not read the comic. Anyone who reads the comic is already NOT fooled. We already know this guy, so this casting and slow build-up detracts from the story for me because I want them to get right to it. I believe that viewers who do not read the comic have a distinct advantage over us readers of the comic because the non-readers have no expectations, no pre-drawn conclusions, no foreknowledge, etc. In the case of The Governor, ignorance of these things is, indeed, bliss.
I don't like how they introduced Michonne & Andrea to The Governor and the town. I certainly hope that they do not - as you suggest - set Andrea up against Rick & the others. The fact that Glen & Maggie have now been brought into Woodbury will be interesting to that end to see what Andrea says to them about The Governor. On the TV show, Andrea sure does know how to pick them tho! First Shane & now The Governor! With the loss of Dale, her moral compass is gone. All her anger, grief, and loss is coming out in this way that makes characters like Shane & The Governor more appealling to her as they more obviously display the character traits she has inside herself, but isn't quite ready yet to see and accept in herself.
I definitely don't like how they have been handling the prison situation. So many things happened when they were in the prison, and I think the TV series would be better served to take and use the slow build-up aspect in regard to this part of the series. I would much rather they jumped right into the Governor and his horrors, but took time getting to know the prisoners, the survivors in the prison, etc.
I don't know. I guess I am going to have to get over (or adjust) my feelings about this season. The TV series is what it is. So I will have to accept it and move on. Since I have a 4 day weekend, I think I will re-watch all the episodes of this season and try to see it with new eyes - the eyes of someone who hasn't read the comic - and see if I can do it. Your thoughts/posts have given me something to think about to this end - so I definitely appreciate that and thank you for your responses!! I will also re-read these parts of the comic book, as I, too, am certainly forgetting some of the many things that happened so long ago in the series.
I DO love Michonne tho!! I won't let you take that away from me!!!! LOL
Matthew
Not sure if they'll do the serial killer thing - seems like at this point it might be a bit of a diversion. But, it could mean we're heading to 2 cliffhangers: Rick/Daryl/Michonne/Oscar caught, while Beth or Carol is in severe danger (perhaps Beth or Carol comes across the severed (and still "alive") head of the other, while Axel titters to himself holding a bloody knife!).
That Michonne is quite the cagey one - notice she doesn't mention anything about Merle and Andrea to rick, despite knowing they'd be interested to hear about it.
The hermit scene was a bit of an odd interlude.
I think it's a little unrealistic that the Gov knew about the Prison, but didn't think it was takeable. OTOH, and makes our guys seem all the more formidable. They're definitely a tighter oiled machine than the Gov's crew - who can't even shoot an arrow straight.
It's amazing how much better overall the show is this year!
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L nny