Despite the understandable calls for diversity there's a element of racial stereotyping in casting an Asian man as a kung fu superhero.
By the same token, if they do the whole K'un-L'un backstory, there is the element of the Great White Hero at play. Don't know how well that would play to the Chinese market. They could avoid that by making the inhabitants of K'un-L'un truly alien with non-Asian names, but who knows?
Do you think they have this same concern in Chinese cinema?
First, China is the 2nd biggest, soon to be the biggest entertainment market in the world, so of course American productions are going to pander to their interests. They are a business and they have to go where the money is. If it also shows racial sensitivity and diversity that's a double win for them.
Second, if a Chinese production is looking for international distribution they definitely do. Look at the movies they've co-financed, like Man with the Golden Fists or Transformers 4, or Iron Man 3.
Do you think they have this same concern in Chinese cinema?
China is not a particularly multi-ethnic country. Han Chinese make up about 92% of the population, and most Americans wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the Han Chinese and the other ethnic groups in China if our lives depended on it.
I don't think I've ever seen an actor in a Chinese-made film who wasn't Chinese—maybe a Korean or two. Even when Hong Kong was under British control, there weren't many non-Chinese-born actors in Hong Kong cinema. So what would they be concerned over?
Do you think they have this same concern in Chinese cinema?
Two different readings of your question: Playdoh’s being, “Do you think the Chinese movie-goers are concerned over the ethnic casting of an American movie?”—and I agree with his answer—and mine being, “Do you think Chinese movie-makers are concerned with the ethnicity of a character in the movies they make?”
You're both slightly off. The question was more directed towards "do you think the producers of Chinese cinema are as 'diversity conscious' as American cinema producers when it comes to making and casting films about previously established icons? And if so, is there anything wrong with that?"
You're both slightly off. The question was more directed towards "do you think the producers of Chinese cinema are as 'diversity conscious' as American cinema producers when it comes to making and casting films about previously established icons? And if so, is there anything wrong with that?"
I would say there is less evidence about whether China cares about whether an original version of a character is preserved. I really don't know much about how China approaches material when they adapt things.
Although, relative to the discussion at hand, I think this comes up more around feature films, as there is huge money to be made if you can get distribution in China. I don't know anything about the market for American TV/Netflix/Amazon Prime type product in China.
You're both slightly off. The question was more directed towards "do you think the producers of Chinese cinema are as 'diversity conscious' as American cinema producers when it comes to making and casting films about previously established icons? And if so, is there anything wrong with that?"
I'm not super familiar with Chinese cinema, so the only characters I can think of that would fall into the "established icons" category would be historical figures (generals, emperors, etc.) and Monkey (and company) of Journey to the West, which has been adapted many times in many ways (Dragonball, for instance). I can't see a Chinese film producer casting anyone other than a Chinese actor to play those roles. But, then, as I said, given that they don't generally hire actors from other countries (as far as I know), they don't really have a lot of options.
The latest Chinese adaptation of Journey to the West was Stephen Chow's movie from a year or two ago. The lead actress is Taiwanese (so officially Chinese by technicality). More interesting is the fact that her character shares (with the lead male) the function in the story usually reserved for a solo male. So Chinese cinema does seem to be becoming more concerned with appealing to both genders.
You're both slightly off. The question was more directed towards "do you think the producers of Chinese cinema are as 'diversity conscious' as American cinema producers when it comes to making and casting films about previously established icons? And if so, is there anything wrong with that?"
I also think you are way over estimating the diversity consciousness of American entertainment producers. Or do we need to have another discussion about the near complete lack of meaningful representation of women and minorities in American entertainment?
So Chinese cinema does seem to be becoming more concerned with appealing to both genders.
I don't recall gender being the thrust of the 'concern' when it came to suggestions for recasting established (published) canon for Iron Fist. I was referring to the suggestion of recasting icons or known characters with a different race to prevent offense or to provide credibility of diversity. Seems to be a trend in America, but not so much elsewhere. I do see a lot of people lumping together 'gender', 'sexual identity', and 'ethnicity' whenever they discuss diversity, but I think that's political. There are several other labels that could be ascribed to 'diversity' that are not as politically convenient such as 'religion', 'disability', or 'affiliation'.
China is not a particularly multi-ethnic country. Han Chinese make up about 92% of the population, and most Americans wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the Han Chinese and the other ethnic groups in China if our lives depended on it.
I don't think I've ever seen an actor in a Chinese-made film who wasn't Chinese—maybe a Korean or two. Even when Hong Kong was under British control, there weren't many non-Chinese-born actors in Hong Kong cinema. So what would they be concerned over?
There are over 20 million Muslims in China and China officially recognizes 55 minority people groups. How large does a minority have to be in order to be concerned if they're offended or not? (rhetorical)
Back to the subject at hand. Recasting Chinese for Taiwanese, Korean, or even Japanese is not exactly what was meant by suggesting a change to K'un-L'un. That's akin to recasting a Caucasian American for a Caucasian Canadian or Brit - in other words, inconsequential. I don't expect a Chinese production company to cast/recast Excel Comics' Captain China as a Latino woman anytime soon. In fact, I would be shocked if they did and it would likely offend most of the Chinese comic fans. I wouldn't call them backwards for being upset either.
My point is that they can do it or not, but most people aren't going to be affected either way, nor do they care and I still don't think they get Netflix in China, other than the millions who probably pirate it. I think sometimes that too much emphasis is placed on diversifying based on race or sexuality because of either an overzealous fear of offending anyone or a vocal minority bullies a group to change to fit their desires. Either way, it isn't always a 'best practice'. In the case of changing the K'un-L'un to aliens instead of any ethnicity... if it doesn't distract from the story (i.e. look stupid) then I don't mind. If they change Danny Rand's ethnicity, I will do a face-palm, as would many members of the chosen ethnicity I imagine - I'm confident Michelle Rodriguez would. The series still had better be good, nonetheless, because I will still watch. Who knows what Marvel might do with the Iron Fist series selling less than 20k issue a month...?
And before you judge, I also happen to think Idris Elba could play 007 exceptionally well. I just wondered if Chinese cinema is as concerned as the colonial western cinema generally appears to be about offending via lack of diversity. It was mostly rhetorical.
I don't recall gender being the thrust of the 'concern' when it came to suggestions for recasting established (published) canon for Iron Fist. I was referring to the suggestion of recasting icons or known characters with a different race to prevent offense or to provide credibility of diversity. Seems to be a trend in America, but not so much elsewhere. I do see a lot of people lumping together 'gender', 'sexual identity', and 'ethnicity' whenever they discuss diversity, but I think that's political. There are several other labels that could be ascribed to 'diversity' that are not as politically convenient such as 'religion', 'disability', or 'affiliation'.
I pointed it out 1) because I thought it was interesting, and 2) because it could be used as an indicator of how they would operate if there were greater ethnic diversity in China.
There are over 20 million Muslims in China and China officially recognizes 55 minority people groups. How large does a minority have to be in order to be concerned if they're offended or not? (rhetorical)
Just for further reference, there are indeed 55 minority groups, but that's a bit misleading. The Hans make very little distinction between them. Kind of like how there are lots of Native American tribes here in the United States, but they are usually lumped together as one group.
As for your question, rhetorical though it may be, it depends on where your majority population is in terms of social awareness. China and the U.S. are not at the same place in those terms, and I think it's important to recognize that distinction.
I think sometimes that too much emphasis is placed on diversifying based on race or sexuality because of either an overzealous fear of offending anyone or a vocal minority bullies a group to change to fit their desires. Either way, it isn't always a 'best practice'. In the case of changing the K'un-L'un to aliens instead of any ethnicity... if it doesn't distract from the story (i.e. look stupid) then I don't mind.
In the end, what a movie company does in the casting of a role isn't about offending or not affending people, per se, it's about selling tickets, pure and simple. And the K'un-L'unans are aliens in the comics (unless that's been retconned), they just all happen to look like Asians and have Asian names.
You have to remember one very important fact about china, the films that get made and imported are controlled by the government. Diveresity isn't as much of an issue as content. The "people's republic" is very protective of the image they've built up around chinese mythology.
I would also like to point out that being from taiwan means you are chinese, not chinese by technicality.
True, though compared to the rest of China, it hasn't been a part of China all that long. And then there's that 50 years of being controlled by Japan. There’s just a separate-ness about Taiwan with the Republic of China versus the People’s Republic of China tug of war going on. I do know the Taiwan movie industry is pretty distinct from the mainland China movie industry just from what little I've read about Ang Lee, but I don't know how deep that runs or how that affects actors and casting and such.
In the end, what a movie company does in the casting of a role isn't about offending or not affending people, per se, it's about selling tickets , pure and simple. And the K'un-L'unans are aliens in the comics (unless that's been retconned), they just all happen to look like Asians and have Asian names.
So in the end you seem to agree that Chinese cinema places less of a premium on ethnic diversity in their films than America does. You also seem to imply that since their minorities are less "socially aware" than we are that there is generally nothing wrong with that arrangement. That about right?
In the end, what a movie company does in the casting of a role isn't about offending or not affending people, per se, it's about selling tickets , pure and simple. And the K'un-L'unans are aliens in the comics (unless that's been retconned), they just all happen to look like Asians and have Asian names.
So in the end you seem to agree that Chinese cinema places less of a premium on ethnic diversity in their films than America does. You also seem to imply that since their minorities are less "socially aware" than we are that there is generally nothing wrong with that arrangement. That about right?
Yes to the first part, no to the second. It's not that the minorities in China are less socially aware, it's the Han majority that's less socially aware. From what I have read, because there are huge rural areas where there is little interaction between different ethnic groups, there are huge misconceptions about those ethnic groups, much in the way Americans thought of Native Americans in the early part of the 20th Century. That's not an excuse, that's context.
What I'm saying is that when the majority is so overwhelmingly in the majority, there is less incentive for them to understand and have empathy with the minorities. Again, that's context not a stamp of approval.
Hey! Who's excited about the Daredevil series coming to Netflix? Hurray!
Can't wait. I think D'Onofrio is going to be fantastic. He is entering the next phase of his very Marlon Brando-esque career. (May his later days be kinder)
Hey! Who's excited about the Daredevil series coming to Netflix? Hurray!
Can't wait. I think D'Onofrio is going to be fantastic. He is entering the next phase of his very Marlon Brando-esque career. (May his later days be kinder)
Ha Ha! No doubt. Great casting. I think D'Onofrio is going to nail it. I think Bob Gunton is inspired casting as well. I have a feeling he will be able to portray a real nasty character. Also looking forward to Rosario Dawson. Rumour has it that her character will turn out to be Night Nurse at some point. (wait a minute... I thought Night Nurse was... ahhh nevermind).
I'm pretty excited about these Netflix shows. I hope they interlock nicely from series to series.
D'Onofrio gained 30 pounds and studied the comic book series for the role. Saying, "I wanted him to have an appearance of being super-powerful so that when he throws punch, it's a major punch. There's a lot of weight behind it."
It also appears that the Owl and Gladiatorwill appear in the series.
WOW! i missed the awesome Asian-American Iron Fist and Chinese cinema discussion!!!
my desire to see an Asian-American iron fist is just out of my own greedy wishes... really nothing to do with how the Chinese market will react to it... i could really care less about the Chinese market...
i just think it'd be awesome to see an asian-american hero on the small or big screen! and iron fist kind of fits... and is low profile enough that marvel might take a gamble
WOW! i missed the awesome Asian-American Iron Fist and Chinese cinema discussion!!!
my desire to see an Asian-American iron fist is just out of my own greedy wishes... really nothing to do with how the Chinese market will react to it... i could really care less about the Chinese market...
i just think it'd be awesome to see an asian-american hero on the small or big screen! and iron fist kind of fits... and is low profile enough that marvel might take a gamble
Ive been thinking about this & not sure where I fall. On one hand, making a character like Wilson Fisk a different ethnicity didn't change to core of the character.
I'm not fluent enough with Rand's character to say the same. From what I perceive to know, isn't being Caucasian (or at least non-Asian) apart of the character?
WOW! i missed the awesome Asian-American Iron Fist and Chinese cinema discussion!!!
my desire to see an Asian-American iron fist is just out of my own greedy wishes... really nothing to do with how the Chinese market will react to it... i could really care less about the Chinese market...
i just think it'd be awesome to see an asian-american hero on the small or big screen! and iron fist kind of fits... and is low profile enough that marvel might take a gamble
Ive been thinking about this & not sure where I fall. On one hand, making a character like Wilson Fisk a different ethnicity didn't change to core of the character.
I'm not fluent enough with Rand's character to say the same. From what I perceive to know, isn't being Caucasian (or at least non-Asian) apart of the character?
M
It's always been part of the origin, and my initial reaction is that it is important, but when I take time to think back on what I've read of Iron Fist (which is admittedly just the Fraction run and probably a handful of his early appearances and some Heroes for Hire back in the '80s), I can't recall a single moment where his being white was essential. Sure, you lose some surface elements, but I don't see how it effects the core of the character.
Comments
Second, if a Chinese production is looking for international distribution they definitely do. Look at the movies they've co-financed, like Man with the Golden Fists or Transformers 4, or Iron Man 3.
I don't think I've ever seen an actor in a Chinese-made film who wasn't Chinese—maybe a Korean or two. Even when Hong Kong was under British control, there weren't many non-Chinese-born actors in Hong Kong cinema. So what would they be concerned over?
Two answers for the price of one!
But there is evidence that the Chinese market is concerned about how China is depicted, and the American film industry has been sensitive to that/pandering to that. And I think that is what some others are getting at, in regard to how "The East" is depicted in Iron FIst. As @nweathington suggested, I wouldn't be surprised if they go with an alien explanation over a more traditional/pulp White explorer goes to 'the Orient' and gets mystical' approach. And that might be to avoid pushback from Asian markets, as well as to a modern Western audience who might think that is reminiscent of some old, pro-Colonial material.
Although, relative to the discussion at hand, I think this comes up more around feature films, as there is huge money to be made if you can get distribution in China. I don't know anything about the market for American TV/Netflix/Amazon Prime type product in China.
The latest Chinese adaptation of Journey to the West was Stephen Chow's movie from a year or two ago. The lead actress is Taiwanese (so officially Chinese by technicality). More interesting is the fact that her character shares (with the lead male) the function in the story usually reserved for a solo male. So Chinese cinema does seem to be becoming more concerned with appealing to both genders.
Back to the subject at hand. Recasting Chinese for Taiwanese, Korean, or even Japanese is not exactly what was meant by suggesting a change to K'un-L'un. That's akin to recasting a Caucasian American for a Caucasian Canadian or Brit - in other words, inconsequential. I don't expect a Chinese production company to cast/recast Excel Comics' Captain China as a Latino woman anytime soon. In fact, I would be shocked if they did and it would likely offend most of the Chinese comic fans. I wouldn't call them backwards for being upset either.
My point is that they can do it or not, but most people aren't going to be affected either way, nor do they care and I still don't think they get Netflix in China, other than the millions who probably pirate it. I think sometimes that too much emphasis is placed on diversifying based on race or sexuality because of either an overzealous fear of offending anyone or a vocal minority bullies a group to change to fit their desires. Either way, it isn't always a 'best practice'. In the case of changing the K'un-L'un to aliens instead of any ethnicity... if it doesn't distract from the story (i.e. look stupid) then I don't mind. If they change Danny Rand's ethnicity, I will do a face-palm, as would many members of the chosen ethnicity I imagine - I'm confident Michelle Rodriguez would. The series still had better be good, nonetheless, because I will still watch. Who knows what Marvel might do with the Iron Fist series selling less than 20k issue a month...?
And before you judge, I also happen to think Idris Elba could play 007 exceptionally well. I just wondered if Chinese cinema is as concerned as the colonial western cinema generally appears to be about offending via lack of diversity. It was mostly rhetorical.
As for your question, rhetorical though it may be, it depends on where your majority population is in terms of social awareness. China and the U.S. are not at the same place in those terms, and I think it's important to recognize that distinction. In the end, what a movie company does in the casting of a role isn't about offending or not affending people, per se, it's about selling tickets, pure and simple. And the K'un-L'unans are aliens in the comics (unless that's been retconned), they just all happen to look like Asians and have Asian names.
What I'm saying is that when the majority is so overwhelmingly in the majority, there is less incentive for them to understand and have empathy with the minorities. Again, that's context not a stamp of approval.
Knowing is half the battle, etc.
[edited for fun]
Also looking forward to Rosario Dawson. Rumour has it that her character will turn out to be Night Nurse at some point. (wait a minute... I thought Night Nurse was... ahhh nevermind).
I'm pretty excited about these Netflix shows. I hope they interlock nicely from series to series.
D'Onofrio gained 30 pounds and studied the comic book series for the role. Saying, "I wanted him to have an appearance of being super-powerful so that when he throws punch, it's a major punch. There's a lot of weight behind it."
It also appears that the Owl and Gladiator will appear in the series.
Only 5 weeks away...
This looks great. I think it will be one of the bloodier Marvel offerings we've seen, probably as much as Fox Studios' The Wolverine.
my desire to see an Asian-American iron fist is just out of my own greedy wishes... really nothing to do with how the Chinese market will react to it... i could really care less about the Chinese market...
i just think it'd be awesome to see an asian-american hero on the small or big screen! and iron fist kind of fits... and is low profile enough that marvel might take a gamble
here's another article that popped up about it...
http://moviepilot.com/posts/2015/03/11/3-reasons-why-iron-fist-should-be-asian-american-in-the-mcu-2769586?lt_source=external,manual
I'm not fluent enough with Rand's character to say the same. From what I perceive to know, isn't being Caucasian (or at least non-Asian) apart of the character?
M